But George, wouldn't the "occasional scrap" with two same sex PitBulls be a little more serious than among GSD's and Mal's? Obviously the temperment and drives of the individual dogs are key, but as a rule -- an average if you will -- it seems APBT's are considerably more intensely animal aggressive. I helped break up a fight between two male Boxers a long time ago and it was way beyond a normal dog fight. I can't imagine anything more intense, but I've been told APBT's are on a another level. Personally, I wouldn't be comfortable with the risks, nor would I want to manage two dogs that could never be trusted together.

George, even Pit enthusiasts and advocates admit that APBTs are inherently more susceptible to animal aggression than other breeds. APBTs are known for their "gameness", their willingness to continue to fight no matter how badly injured.
As far as training more than one dog at a time, that's fine for someone that either has experience with dogs or understands what they are potentially getting themselves into. From bmatis's original post, I feel that this person is neither.
It's not true that a dog is just a product of its environment. Genes/breeding, and that dog's individual temperament have just as much to do with it. Those things all come together to form the big picture.
I'm not generalizing about the breed out of fear/ignorance. I've done my homework. I agree that it is a misunderstood breed, but to answer the original question, yes, they are different. They were *bred* to fight other animals. Yes, that fighting is supposed to be controllable. But, to deny that the breed does not have an inherent animal aggression is irresponsible, and that kind of denial of reality on the part of some Pit advocates pisses me off. Don't tell me how misunderstood the breed is, then deny the genetic realities of it.

The ideal Pit will "out" on command, even in the heat of a fight. But it takes a knowledgeable handler to raise and train two of them to be reliable in this way. I don't think bmatis is knoledgeable enough to have taken on this responsibility. That's not a put-down. Every dog handler has started out knowing nothing about dogs. It takes time and experience to get there. No one should be looked down upon for lack of knowledge or experience, but they should be able to admit if they are in over their head, and do the right thing to correct it.

J Parker-

You have "done your homework".
You seem to have a good knowledge of the breed.
However, regarding bitework, I have yet to see an APBT that would engage a man with the same intensity that he would fight another dog. I don't think that there is a well bred APBT anywhere that will out off of another dog. Easy to train the out in bitework though, just like any other breed.
In many ways, manwork runs contrary to hundreds of years of breeding. They can still do a very good job of it though, as evidenced by their recent successes in the various dogsports.
The best thing that the origional poster can do is to keep the dogs seperate. Sure, you can think that you have them trained not to fight each other, but just when you least expect it, there will be a brawl. NEVER leave two or more of these dogs together unsupervised! Why invite disaster. You might get away with it a few times, but they will eventually fight, then like Brendan's friend you will come home to a blood bath.
The 2 main rules for raising Pitbulls are as follows:
1) Never trust a Pitbull not to fight.
2) Refer to rule #1.

Ted

bmatis, I think the breeder from whom you got these dogs was very irresponsible. To tell you that you HAD to buy the second dog because otherwise it would be bought by someone who would fight it? That is ridiculous. If this breeder was at all responsible, he would make sure that every pup he placed was going to a responsible home. I also doubt very much that any good breeder, especially of pitbulls, would place two females in the same home to be raised together without a long, serious talk with the new owner. I think you should discuss both of these issues with the pet store owner, and any other ABPT breeders or rescuers you can find in the area. Hopefully this breeder can be pressured to be more responsible. ABPT breeders who don't thoroughly check their customers, and who don't insist on neutering or spaying, are no better than the people who fight these dogs themselves - because that's what they are perpetuating.

I also think you would be wise to get rid of both of the pitbulls, since you already have a female pomeranian. The pits will be getting bigger than her and when that happens there will be fights. If you think the Pom will submit easily then it might be okay, but otherwise the pitbull could really hurt the Pom.

I have one female pitbull and one male pitbull mutt and I think they are wonderful dogs for all the reasons mentioned above. I think that it is quite possible for two of them to live together peacefully but only if you really plan for it and you are willing to accept that it may not work out. My dogs share a crate, unsupervised, nearly every day. They have never had a fight. But I didn't raise them from puppies together and I intentionally chose two non-agressive dogs of different genders.

Brendan, your friend who had 6 pitbulls sounds like a moron to me. It shouldn't be that hard to monitor the dogs sufficiently to prevent fights. I know unexpected things can happen, but if you know what you are doing, you learn to what to look out for and you can tell which dogs are safe together and under what circumstances. And if you get a dogbite, you should automatically take antibiotics. Dogs lick their own butts you know.

And if you get a dogbite, you should automatically take antibiotics. Dogs lick their own butts you know.

That is one of the funniest things I've read on this board!!! Awesome finish to that post cnielson!!

cnielsen,

I will agree that having 6 pitbulls living together is not a very smart idea. But to say that it would be easy to moniter 6 pitbulls living together well enough to prevent fights is not really understanding the genetic make-up of the breed. I don't think you will find many responsible pit owners trying to pull this off. It would be far from easy to keep any dog breed from fighting with numbers like this living together. I agree with what you said as far as the pet store owner being an idiot. I think this post has veared off into a pissing match between pit fanciers and what is being perceived as pit detractors. I respect all of you well informed consiencious Pit bull owners for your efforts to improve the reputation of the breed. Then there is the ever-colorful Brendan who really has contributed some excellent thoughts on this web board, but who also has a knack for spicing things up a bit. I agree with you Vince, he is ok in my book as well!LOL <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Like I said earlier, and JParker also mentioned it, these people need to find a home for one without other dogs, just keep one and obedience train her into a good pet. There has already been dog on dog aggression displayed and it will only get worst. Every incedent involving this breed runs the risk of becoming newspaper and or evening news material. This needs to be prevented. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Sorry Chuck F., I don't think I made my point very well. I didn't mean to say that it would be easy to have six pitbulls live peacefully together. I think it would be very difficult and I would never try it. I meant to say that, for a good owner, it ought to be easy to know when your own dogs can and can't be trusted to play together. It sounds like the guy has decided that his dogs can never again be trusted to play together. If that's the kind of dogs they are, then so be it, but I think he is pretty stupid not to have been able to figure this out before one of them was killed. Even when I am exercising rescue dogs whom I've never met before (much less my own dogs), it is not hard to know to take it slow with introductions, and it is not hard to see when two dogs start paying more attention to each other than necessary, and to get things under control before they have a chance to fight. I question what this guy's motives are for keeping six dogs, anyway, speaking of penis exensions. Does he really have time to give each dog enough training, exercise and love separately? If not, the dogs are better off as compost.

It's true this thread has gotten off-topic, but the poster did ask "are pitbulls really different," and that's what people are trying to answer. Sounds like everyone agrees that they are. Maybe if the poster tells us whether she has decided to keep them both we can offer further advice regarding either keeping the peace or finding a new home.

Workingdog,


There is nothing hypocritical or ignorant about suggesting that someone who does not have the experience to raise 2 pit-bulls at the same time(no knock on that person) should not raise them together. People post on this board for advice and after determining as best as possible their level of experience, others respond with what they feel is the best advice they can offer considering the situation.

As far as raising and training more than one dog at the same time, you, myself and many others on the board through our knowlege and experience are able to successfully acomplish this, but it pretty clear through the original post that these people are not(once again, no knock on them!)People without experience should not raise two pups of any breed at the same time especially of the same sex. Now you throw two female pit bulls(from hardly what you would call a reputable source)into the mix and this causes a problem for the average person. Sure, the only way to gain experience is to do it, we all must start somewhere. But this is not the right circumstance and there is no reason to have any confidence whatsoever that these pups are genetically sound or their handler can easily deal with this. By the way, how does raising and training Border Collies compare to raising and training Pit-bulls? I respect your attempt to give possitive advice, however it would seem that it would be next to impossible for one to gain enough knowlege from a web board quickly enough to be able to fix this situation before the problem gets out of control or becomes too serious. This is why many of us have suggested the advice we have. It is no knock on the APT, I see it as a way to protect the breed from more negative press. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

PS Sorry about my horrific spelling!