I like him, and I would love to go see him if he ever comes back to Boston.

Honestly, I can't even remember how many times I have read "Cesar's Way". Its a really good book . Between reading that book and working with other peoples pet dogs last summer, I have definitely learned just how effective body language is when communicating with an animal.

Last summer when I worked part time at a doggie day school, there was a lab named Jimmy. He was a perfect example of how an owner could negatively influence a dog.

When he was with us, he was a model canine. Obedient, well behaved, gentle with children and great with other dogs. Quick to learn anything. Really focused in any kind of scent work, and an awesome retriever.

When his owner would come to pick him up, Jimmy would act out in anxiety. He would junp on his owner and mouth him, and then take off to go play with Tasha, refusing to come to his owners command. He would do absolutely anything not to get in his owners car.

The owner was a good guy, he just had no clue how to be a leader for the dog and didn't really care to learn. He just liked to drop the dog off with a profesional trainer everyday instead of doggie day care. He had money to burn and he was lazy.

Jimmy's "problems" were dog aggression, taking off and refusing to come back, and plain wildness in general. I can tell you first hand that there was nothing wrong with this dog. We didn't even have to work to get him to be good. He just was, and he was good all the time.

It was his owner that was his only problem.

Maybe we should start a new thread here entitled "TV Dog Trainers" or some such thing, but since the subject came up, I'll put my two cents in about Cesar and Victoria.

I think Cesar is an incredibly gifted person, but I also believe the kinds of gifts he has cannot be "taught" to others. You either have them or you don't. One certainly cannot learn them from reading a book or watching a TV show. That said, though, I think there are benefits to be gained in his books and TV show regarding his exercise/discipline/affection theory and his emphasis on being the pack leader. But when you try to cram two or three case studies into an hour-long show, it does end up looking like all you do is say "Tscht!" go for a short walk and the problem is cured. I'd love to know what goes on behind the scenes on that show.

I think Victoria demonstrates techniques that are easily achievable by the average dog owner, though her methods are quite different from Cesar's. For example, Cesar rarely, if ever, uses treats, and Victoria is a big believer in treats. The one area where I really disagree with Victoria, though, is in her belief that a head halter solves all problems with dogs that pull on the leash. In my experience, they don't work well, and actually can be dangerous.

Back to the OP, Maria, I think it sounds like you are making amazing progress. Two months is a very short time to have a dog, especially one with the issues you describe. Changing her behavior will take many, many months, and there will be good days and other days where it feels like she's back-sliding. Eleven months is a challenging age for most dogs, let alone one you are trying to rehabilitate. I am very glad you discovered this discussion board, and wish you the best of luck. Please keep us posted on your progress.

 Quote:

Folks from where I live would pile into a couple of cars and drive down together to attend his seminars.

Wow. That's good.
I am so sorry I lead the thread in the different direction.
I also did not mean to offend Victoria Stilwell on a personal level-she might be a wonderful person and IS a good trainer, but not a "behaviourist". I agree with marker training, it WORKS wonders, but disagree with her total lack of understanding of dog behaviour. I am sorry, but saying that a dog needs " to be pacified by increasing carbohydrates in his diet "because " too much protein makes dogs aggressive " is insanity. Saying that a clearly dominant -aggressive dog who protects her owner and does not let owner's daughter approach the owner, plus humps everyone's legs and toys in the house, " must be in physical pain " is not right. And when the same dog is obsessively licking her owner's nose, it is not because " she likes to eat ..hmmm...salt in her nose...hmmm...boogers ".

Expressions like: " Dogs do not see people as lower or higher ranking pack members, it's human hierarchy and dogs don't have it " is more than a red flag.
I can not believe what I am hearing sometimes. She has some sound advice about exercise and structure, I agree, but I doubt she can solve any real, serious issues. For god's sakes, she said to one family that they most certainly will have "to put the dog down" when all this dog needed is to be walked on a regular basis. Which thank god they did.
The fembot/dom outfit is kinda funny. When she starts yelling at the owners, I can almost hear the whip cracking in the back.

I am sorry for changing the subject, I will not do it again. It just went off-course by accident...somehow.

I agree with you, from the "may be a wonderful person off TV" to her apparently complete lack of real pack understanding. The ensembles served her well in the progression from actress/dogwalker to instant TV behaviorist.

I too have to laugh (and wince) at her pronouncements about protein causing aggression. She actually recommended spaghetti (pasta) to dial back aggression. And the "must be in pain" about the resource-guarding "I own the owner" dog ... aarrgghh.

OTOH, she has done a lot for rescue/rehab, as has Cesar, and they are good folks (IMO) to use their celebrity status this way.

JMO!

Sorry guys..to get back to the subject...can we use an e-collar on Yume at training stage? We know how to, and we are getting a DVD too, of course it is just an alternative to her prong/training collar and NOT a tool to punish the dog , we understand it. I know I have to desensitize her to it, watch the DVD tons of times, etc.

I am just wondering if it is a little bit more even and consistent than me being too weak with her and will stop me from nagging her too much. I am trying not too, but I sometimes can correct her right and sometimes physically have a problem with it. It kind of sounds more consistent and a lot of times less damaging for dogs judging from what I read. I also really-really don't want her to ever think that being on a leash with me is a unpleasant, that leash means corrections. If someday we let her off leash in the distant future , I don;t want her to be wary of coming back to me to be leashed again.

We know it's just a training tool, and of course we will not shock her senseless like some folks do, no avoidance bull and things like that. Just thought it might be helpful for us. We use the prong correctly, its fit just right, so really, I don't see much difference, if its used correctly. I don't expose her to such severe distractions that would make her go nuts anyway, but it certainly would be easier on my hands than even a strong tug on the leash when she needs one.

Anyone thinks its a good/bad idea? Obviously, now she is in the groundwork program so she does not need it RIGHT now.

IMO, an e collar is a good tool as a last step in training, and for dealing with certain problem behaviors once every other option has been tried and ruled out.

I don't think you need an e collar just yet. Wait untill her obedience is really solid and all the rules are clear.

 Quote: lauren jeffery

... I don't think you need an e collar just yet. Wait untill her obedience is really solid and all the rules are clear.

I agree. The hard leash corrections have come up a few times; it would probably be really good for the long run if during the GW protocol a ton of "I am the leader" and exercise(!) take some of the focus off constant corrections.

For me, this is kind of a red flag:
"We use the prong correctly, its fit just right .... I sometimes can correct her right and sometimes physically have a problem with it ... I don't expose her to such severe distractions that would make her go nuts anyway ... "

If the prong does fit correctly and the dog is well-exercised with that good "march" described by the O.P., then constant strong leash tugs kind of DO make me question the level of distraction.

I do know I tend to do all this work slowly (gradually); I know that I'm comparatively methodical --- or maybe "plodding" . But anyway, if I'm tugging and being pulled and hurting my wrists and the dog is not loaded with frustrated energy, then I'm looking at the distraction, at the reactivity triggers.

For now, in the middle of GW, I'm setting aside the whole issue by planning the exercise carefully (time and venue), but I'm also looking ahead to some concentrated desensitizing (working with bulletproof basic ob on the outside edge of the dog's trigger zone).

JMO!



Edited by Connie Sutherland (03/12/2011 02:51 PM)
Edit reason: edit/add

I don't think i explained myself well. I have swollen hands, 24/7. It was actually better a month ago . Yumeko does not really pull, and it's not constant corrections, but if we have to pass a dog too closely (we do live in the city) she wants to play and if I don't stop her early she will try to jump towards the dog. I can walk, but being thrown out of balance even a little is a big deal for me. My husband does not notice it at all, but he is healthy. So naturally, if i try to give her even level say, 3 correction, my hands hurt. It depends on illness, really. She is NOT that much of a puller at all, if there are no dogs close to her she is totally nice. Just walks by my side, loose leash and all.

There is NO places with zero distractions at all. Everywhere are people, cars and dogs. We live very close to Golden Gate park in SF. I spend, well, 99% of time with the dog. Right now, it is just me-I walk her, feed her, etc. before the groundwork i was the one who groomed her, clipped her nails, trained her. Now, it's all me. That's five walks per day. So naturally, for me it would be less painful than a prong.

What I mean by high distractions was no more park walks. it was hard-ducks, horses, frisbees, dogs off-lead, wildlife. We don't do any of that. We were stupid enough to take her to a dog park when we just got her-no more of that. we don't go to the beach, etc. where dogs run free. But we cannot avoid dogs in the streets, there are tons of them here. Most of the time, I shush her and we walk by. But f an animal runs uncontrolled and gets in her face, I have to have control physically too, sudden move, even not very strong, can hurt sometimes. there are so many idiots with flexi-leashes too, who don't even know their dog is around the corner trying to get into a scrap. We can't entirely avoid everyone, I usually block her from them, make her sit and look at me, or just shush, correct if she does not pay attention, and keep walking, depending on the situation.

I had to even once shake my cane at the fox-terrier that was really pushy running loose and getting into our face too much haha. But clearly that doggy was not afraid of canes. Had to push him away with my boot. And yell at the owner. In the middle of a busy intersection, too.

Ah, gotcha. No yard or driveway either? And she still lunges even with the prong?

I know most people are not into them on this board, but I wonder if a gentle leader might be a good fit for you while you work on obedience. I've seen tiny women walk great danes comfortably using them.

Not as a forever solution, but just so you can walk her in the interim.

Connie, what do you think?

Its just that an e collar can cause a great deal of confusion if not used perfectly.