Quote: Connie Sutherland

#1Dave, you asked!

#2I'd grab these responses and run with them instead of becoming defensive.

 Quote: Lisabet Measures

My comments were made because I personally found elements of inconsistency in the arguments you presented regarding breeding.

At the end of the day, no-one wants to see anything but the most successful outcomes for your ideas.

#3Ditto!

#1 yes I did
#2 I am appreciative, I got defensive, not a proper reaction after asking for it
#3 I'm really in the dark as to inconsistencys?? maybe it was how I said it????
thank you

 Quote: Mara Jessup

#1 FWIW, What I'm seeing on the site is a love for the dogs you own and a desire to do right by them.
#1A What I'm not yet seeing is a good indepth understanding of the breed or
#1B reason for breeding. Not saying that you don't have one, just that I'm not seeing it on the site.

#2 I'd want to see the joint/health checks done on the parents.

#3 Working breeds should have a minimum working standard that they're bred to. On any dog I'd want to see a minimum level of some type of training. Like at least passing a CGC or equivalent (usually much more)

#4 I agree that titles certainly aren't everything, but IMO any breeder should have training experience to know that the dog that they're breeding is worth breeding (temperament wise as much as anything - getting a dog out and about really helps show the temperament of the dog)

#5 If you want to showcase what you do with your dogs outside of formal training/competition, use videos on your site. Train your dogs really well in carting then explain how it can be used, show off your dogs skills, etc.

#1 yes, above all else that is what the goal of the site was

#1A honestly, when I go to a site to see mastiffs(100+) I rarely click on history.... most are almost repeats..

But I now understand the importance of having it for new comers to the breed

#1B allright....way back when.. we wanted to get girls to breed so we could keep puppies to show and ob and for sure as many things and venues we can. We even dreamed of having a fawn team and brindle team to pull Its two years after we could have breeded, we waited untill we were confident with our abilities to decide to breed

in no way am I trying to come across as I know more than I do, I guess thats why I skipped the informative pages, those will be the easy ones

#2 I will answer this in detail in Kelly's reply with guarantee

#3 I would really appreciate any links to breeders of english mastiffs who go past showing.....other than some fun pulling, none I've come across
Are there "true working lines left" (from my understanding this is a problem in lots of breeds nowdays)
my girls have proven to ME they can work, not through compitition, but what I want to expand on with pups
Really, jumping into pressured activities with my first dog ever would probably have been too much for me THEN, now I feel confident enough in my abilities

#4 temperament is most important, I would not even consider reproducing a mentally unsound dog

#5 I thought about videos, Would it add any validity? I do think the pictures I have are honest representations of what we do now

Edited by Dave Owen (01/03/2012 12:52 AM)
Edit reason: add

 Quote: Dave Owen

#3 I would really appreciate any links to breeders of english mastiffs who go past showing.....other than some fun pulling, none I've come across
Are there "true working lines left" (from my understanding this is a problem in lots of breeds nowdays)
my girls have proven to ME they can work, not through compitition, but what I want to expand on with pups

I'm not sure about other breeders - personally I'm not into the breed and don't really have time to do research on them. But I think that anyone who is a potential breeder should be looking for ways to rise above the norm to produce exceptional dogs in that breed. I am very familiar with the idea of preserving working ability - you know what goal you're aiming for in the idea of ability and you aim for that goal in your training and breeding endeavors. The reason that former working breeds have lost working abilities work is simply because they ceased being selected/bred for work.

Here's another question for you (Seriously - I'm not trying to bog you down!) In your opinion, What goes into creating an exceptional Mastiff? What specific traits to your dogs have that you believe will benefit the breed?

As far as videos adding validity, videos showcase more than photos do and give people a better sense of who your dogs are/what they do. Videos are also a great tool for you in critiquing your dogs and training and finding areas to improve.

Ditto on the health testing comments. When I am looking at breeder websites for a potential puppy I immediately discount a breeder that does not list the health testing results for thier dogs. I also like websites that have a section on what should be tested in the breed. I am experienced so when I look at a breed other than my own the first place I go is the Canine Heath Information Center (CHIC) and see if the breed is a CHIC breed and what testing is recommended for the breed. For example, here is the Mastiff testing recommendations: http://www.caninehealthinfo.org/brdreqs.html?breed=MF

I would expect to see most if not all of these tests listed and done on any bitch that is being planned to be bred in the upcoming year as that would be the first thing I would expect a breeder to get done prior to making a decision to breed.

So to sum up I would list your girls' health results on thier individual pages. My site needs desperately to be updated but here is how I handled it one of my dogs' pages: http://psychtkennel.com//dogsdet.asp?id=1

Congratulations on doing your own site. I thought about doing it, bought a fancy web program, starting reading the literally 1000 page book on the web program, and proceeded to pay someone else to design my site :-P

Wow, that's a lot of input you've had Dave! It cannot get better than this for feedback on your website content.

I just want to clarify the issue of your venture as a "business". I think that you will find that most breeders regard their enterprise as a business. That does not necessarily signify that it is a profitable one unless it forms part of say running a boarding kennel or a dog training establishment etc. For some dedicated small breeders, one party of the couple looks after the dogs while the other earns a salary to support that endeavour which includes the costs of showing, travel etc.

The purpose of setting up your website is that you are hoping it will provide the avenue through which you are best able to develop relationships with prospective clients. These relationships will undoubtedly be lifelong friendships/relationships in many instances. A good breeding program means that people who have purchased one puppy from you are most likely to return at some point for a second puppy and so you build a dedicated repeat clientel.

The business practices by which a breeder holds themself accountable will determine how they are perceived by clients and by other breeders as well as by members of the dog community at large. What are the breeder's policies? What is their mission statement- the philosophy that guides the enterprise. Where can I see a copy of the breeder's sale contract- what are the terms of sale for a non-breeding contract etc. So here we come to the issue of ethics in business relationships and best business practices, especially on health issues of the dam,sire and the pups.

I also checked on the Dalmatian Club of America's site as to their Ethical Guidelines...perhaps it will give you more ideas and it maybe slightly differently worded than the CKC or the Mastiff Clubs the latter of which I am not familiar with-
Dalmatian Club of America- Ethical Guidelines Note the points relating to breeding.

 Quote: Lisabet Measures

I think that you will find that most breeders regard their enterprise as a business.

I/we have done lots of thinking, business wise we run a very succesful landscape business.
I have over 20yrs experience at it, I've compleated my schooling for my C.J.L.G 12 years ago,

we have done two residential jobs in Alberta worth more than 250 000.00 based on reputation. and dozens of other substancial projects

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g325/dogpictures10/00180011.jpg
http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g325/dogpictures10/00180022.jpg
http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g325/dogpictures10/00250002.jpg

from what are getting via feedback on our site we realize the only thing that our succesful business model has in common with our dog venture is our passion, our desire to do the best we can.

We have contacted a mastiff breeder who activly shows and is a member of a few mastiff breed clubs, they are in alberta. We have tenativly(this month) sceduled a visit at their place with our girls
and have gotten an invitation to join http://www.mcwc.ca/index.php/club-information/code-of-ethics

the last thing I want is to be unable to place all the pups

I just about threw up thinking of two big litters and my site being my private self rightous blog

I appologise for not answering the rest of the questions, I will be spending the time on my site ensuring I do answer those questions..

I hope I can very soon ask for opinions again.. and get them

....humbly..Dave Owen

What Lisabet said about the 'business' of breeding...

Jan said by the time she had actually paid for vet check home visits (twice) jabs, gruel (sp?) microchipping, bedding, registrations etc etc, not to mention the 3 weeks where she didn't attend to her 'day' job of the admin of her husbands building business, she probably didn't break even.

Her main reason for the 2 litters from 2 different bitches was to keep a pup to bring on for herself, I sort of get the impression talking to her and other 1 or 2 litter people, the only people actually making a LIVING out of breeding are the commercial breeders with maybe a half dozen breeding females, or the puppy farmers who churn out a litter each time a bitch comes into season.

Ditto Tracey.

And yet there is the ethical requirement to adhere to "best business practices" irrespective of whether you are breeding as a profitable enterprise or not or whether you are officially registered as a business....and even if you are breeding only one or two litters, Puppy mills obviously do not adhere to best business practices..they are at the least ethical end of the spectrum.

If you look at ethical guidelines laid down by different breed clubs you can see that there is a real challenge as to how to maintain the quality bloodlines of many breeds...and this is why these guidelines have been developed.

I really thank every one for the eye opener, all my friends and family were not subjective looking at the site

ethics, well they cannot be replaced with good intentions

I do honestly feel I have got healthy girls, but no way to prove
it

The list of boys has been chopped down, not that I mis trust my research,

I have to admit after calling a few vets I have a new appreciation for people who have limited litters off of heath tested stock $$=ouch

I am a bit aprehensive about the girl being put under for the ofa x rays,

on the good side, I have emaled back and forth with the somewhat local breeder who shows all their dogs, they are willing to help me show bridgette,

I didn't start out into the dog world quite right, and feel very lucky that so many people in the dog world, cyber or real are in it for the dogs and willing to freely give advice

thanks every one, you all set the bar really high as it should be

Well, Dave, THAT last post means you're on the right track to becoming a GOOD breeder.

Nothing worth having is easy to get.