Hmmm, Simon is making me think here.....
I'd say that Fetz was a pretty normal puppy up until around eight or nine months old. He had a lot of drive, and was a general pain in the butt in the house. My cats started a petition drive to have him shipped to Alaska, but that went nowhere...
But he went to puppy Kindergarten class and I had him in an entry level OB class as a puppy/ young dog, so he was socialized well - plus he was crated in the ring while I taught the advanced OB classes that came after the basic classes at my Obedience club. He never gave me any problems there.
He didn't seek out people to get a ear rub, but he never acted resentful of attention from others. He pretty much ignored my wife, but followed me around with the religious devotion that we all expect from our dogs.
He got no, I repeat, zero bite training until age nine months. I test my puppies once or twice with a burlap rag at a very early age, and then they just get worked in OB and tracking until they've matured a bit. The only reason I did bite work with Fetz at that age was due to attending the Leerburg/ Flinks seminar.

He finally went into this phase of his at the first Bernhard Flinks seminar I attended, he was nine months old. I think it was on day number three of the seminar, and Bernhard really liked Fetz's drive. I was doing some OB exercise and finally did it right. I downed Fetz while Bernhard was talking, and Bernhard then slapped me hard on the back for doing a good job. Fetz immediately flew up with murder his eyes and just missed Bernhard's face ( Thank God I had a good grip on the leash ). There are several board members here that saw it also, we were just shocked, and I pretty much had to drag Fetz off the field. Bernhard was just smiling and saying that this was a dog with strong protective instincts and that this was a good thing.
It's never changed since that day, and the dog will nail someone making a fast or aggressive move towards me, so I'm *ultra* careful with him. So far, so good, but I have to be very attentive around others when I have him around.

Vancamp has his full litter sister, and she is apparently the Spawn of Satan also.

I've seen Fetz in action. The only way I'd take the other end of his leash is if there was a door between us. A BIG, LOCKED door! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Will,
You mentioned your pups get worked with a rag once or twice and then you wait until they mature before you start protection training. With Fetz you waiting until he was nine months old. What is your philosophy/reasoning behind that approach?
Do you do any other rag/tug work yourself with your developing pups before introducing them to a helper?

Originally posted by Chip Blasiole:
Will,
You mentioned your pups get worked with a rag once or twice and then you wait until they mature before you start protection training. With Fetz you waiting until he was nine months old. What is your philosophy/reasoning behind that approach?
Do you do any other rag/tug work yourself with your developing pups before introducing them to a helper? This got off topic but is interesting.

I heard of some trainers (KNPV) that don't do any pray promotion at all, wanting 'clean' dog when they start training at 9 or so months of age. Basically they want to see if dog is naturally worth the time to train.

Recently i have seen two littermates; one was started with pray promotion and imprinting at early age and other did not have _any_ imprinting, socialization, pray promotion or any training. They are 8 months old now and we tested second on soft sleeve (it was first time that dog saw sleeve) and he hit it hard and full (totally calm). First one (socialized, pray promotion, etc...) also has nice full grip (more intense, but he is stronger dog from the litter).

My question is how valid this approach would be with animal that is of any lesser quality?

Hey Chip,
Ivan is actually thinking directly along my thought lines here: I have been taught to go for the strongest puppy that I can find to maximize future success, and so far, a accurate puppy test ( like the Flinks puppy test ) has worked well for me. I do just a few sessions of early rag work to evaluate grip and drive, and then I wait for matuirity to kick in.

For a lower quality dog, I would likely spend some time in the early months working on bite development.

And the OB work via the flinks method with a ball or small bite tug does develop grip and focus ( obviously <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ) and I've found that this method transfers over to the sleeve well for a dog of good quality.
I have also started bite work just a little earier than I normally would with both Buttercup and Fetz, each time due to the opportunity to work the dog on an exceptional handler - Buttercup saw the sleeve for the first time on Bernhard at the last Flinks seminar, and I was very happy with his grip and focus.

In a previous post I brought up this issue of early and ongoing prey development in protection vs. waiting for the dog to mature, but only got a few responses. I think people like to start early with their pups because it is fun to see the progress a young pup makes. They can also see if the young pup brings any drive to the training. I bet that at most seminars given by top sport trainers, the recommendation is to get the pups out early and start working them with a good helper. But like Ivan mentioned, I have heard several old school KNPV trainers say they don't want to put the time into a pup so they wait until the pup is nine to ten months old and test him in some bitework.
If a pup, based on its breeding, is likely to be primarily a prey based dog, I can see going with early and ongoing prey promotion in the bitework. However, if you select a pup for genetics that are likely to produced a more balanced dog with strong natural aggression and a degree of sharpness, I think there is some value in waiting until the pup has some maturity before introducing the dog to a helper. A couple of years ago, someone posted that several of the old school European trainers strongly believed you need to wait until the pup has some maturity before you do bite work, so that the dog can bring a degree of seriousness to the bitework from the beginning, as opposed to learning from the start that the bitework is a game and the tug and sleeve are the goal instead of the man.
Flink's approach seems to fit well into introducing the pup to a helper after he has some maturity because it is one thing for the dog to play a game with his handler in order to develop prey drive, grip and targeting, and something very different for the dog to bite a stranger.