Quote: andrew harris

if you look at the body language of the bordeaux you will note there is no sign of fear coming from her she saw it as a game her tail never went between her legs at anytime.

Andrew;

Though her tail was not tucked, there are signs of avoidance and submission that you are overlooking. One way that dogs display dominance is by "teeing up" or standing over another dog. The Bordeaux, whenever she gets the chance, comes over to you. This is her way of saying "Help me please. I need your protection."
I'm sure everything did go fine after this; dogs aren't dumb, and the Bordeaux quickly learned what she had to do to survive, that she was on her own, and she could expect no help from the human pack leader.

In the form of constructive criticism, there is a lot you can learn from the body language of your visitors. They all look to the videographer (you, the human pack leader) for leadership and direction. This suggests to me that they have strong human leaders in their own homes. Do you see that the white puppy, although not being intimidated or dominated, looks directly at you when there is a pause and he's not sure what happens next?
Do you notice that Misty, the little black-and-white bull terrier, has laid-down ears, a tucked tail, and uncertainty in her eyes as she creeps closer to you for protection? Even if it's not protection she seeks, that is avoidance/submissive behavior.

You have a reasonably well-behaved pack that interact well with each other, but you seem to be overlooking or justifying their treatment of others. I see a lot of hesitations and refusals in your work with your pack, with no corrections or do-overs. I see repeated requests, almost as if you're asking for compliance. They seem to comply if and when they choose to.

I have had some of the same issues with my single, hyper, alpha dog. I had to learn to read her better, correct the situation proactively, make amends to anyone who was offended, and take steps to ensure that this didn't happen again. I really had to increase my vigilance.

Most of the posters here with large packs preach human pack leadership, and that dogs are not allowed to enforce rank or make corrections.

I hope this comes across as constructive. You have beautiful dogs and they work to gether well as a pack. You could pay better attention to how they interact with their non-pack members. In any event, this is all just MY opinion.

Edited by Duane Hull (08/14/2012 09:10 AM)
Edit reason: duplicate post

 Quote: steve strom

From what I see Andrew, you think you have some great control, but you really don't and its going to show at the absolute worst time.

I accept your comments i came to this forum to gain more knowledge so can you be more specific as to how you conclude this and perhaps tell me what i am or have done wrong and what i may do to improve .

"if you look at the body language of the bordeaux you will note there is no sign of fear coming from her she saw it as a game "

I completely disagree. And I agree with the poster who said she looked for intervention from you.


Andrew, I saw some clips I loved of your pack, although I too saw them ignore you several times and finally decide on their own that they felt like compliance. In general, though, nice pack, and generally good control, especially for the number.

But the clips being commented on really do need a second thought from you. I wish II had watched all the clips and not one of two before posting .... although maybe it's better that the fun ones of your pack alone were admired for what they are so it's clearer that no one is jumping on you for nothing.

I'd take some of this to heart; I'd at least think about it as well-meant. There is almost no one on this thread who has not had 30 years (or many more) of a dog-centered life.

 Quote: andrew harris

 Quote: steve strom

From what I see Andrew, you think you have some great control, but you really don't and its going to show at the absolute worst time.

I accept your comments i came to this forum to gain more knowledge so can you be more specific as to how you conclude this and perhaps tell me what i am or have done wrong and what i may do to improve .

Take the horse video. The first dog left the horse when you called, the one who was over there by herself. Once they all went out there, they came and went back as they pleased. I don't think one ever did. You justified it with " They're fascinated by the horse"

The Bordeaux is pretty submissive. You're lucky. If she didnt pin her head to the ground like that, the one Neo is going to attack her and the others would probably join in. You think you could separate them.

 Quote: andrew harris

 Quote: steve strom

From what I see Andrew, you think you have some great control, but you really don't and its going to show at the absolute worst time.

I accept your comments i came to this forum to gain more knowledge so can you be more specific as to how you conclude this and perhaps tell me what i am or have done wrong and what i may do to improve .

Take the horse video. The first dog left the horse when you called, the one who was over there by herself. Once they all went out there, they came and went back as they pleased. I don't think one ever did. You justified it with " They're fascinated by the horse"

The Bordeaux is pretty submissive. You're lucky. If she didnt pin her head to the ground like that, the one Neo is going to attack her and the others would probably join in. You think you could separate them.

I was very aware the bordeaux was submissive I actually say so in the vieo an I agree if sh didnt behve as she did things could have ben differnt but I never took my eyes off any o them obviously as I was recoding,and what you escribe is extly the things I watched for and had I noticed it happening I would of intervened before it escalated as you are quite correct I know I wouldnt be able to seperate them if it got to a certain level of behaviour .Agin with th hos incidnt the dog that was not listening well I am aware o her behviour an o tke her seperately of training on her own hence her tip to london she i the one on the escaltor an on the tube.I realise her behaviour could lead the pack into a bad situation and am working on her she is still an adolesent.



above is a pictureof all 4 0n the tube and another picture of all 4 at discovery dogs at earls court


so you can see it is important for me to learn and be confient i hav a much control as I need.I've been lead to understand that I should confront situations and not avoid them o control hem when things get difficult bcause we cant always control what goes on around us

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u165/bosscat69/discover%20dogs%20earls%20court%202011/Image0234.jpg

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u165/bosscat69/discover%20dogs%20earls%20court%202011/Image0233.jpg

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u165/bosscat69/discover%20dogs%20earls%20court%202011/Image0248.jpg

Personaly Andrew, I think you have too many large, large, dogs to be playing pack leader in public with. If something happens, its gonna be completely out of control.

I think you should be working one dog at a time for all of them, and if you can't manage that, you have too many dogs. I doubt you'd agree with that, but what I see is 800lbs of portable dog park looking for all the problems that you see at those.

Thanks for your comments Steve there is a partof me that would have agreed a year ago when I first decided to keep th twopups at that time I knew I had absolute control over the two adults no matter what and I thought it wouldb e easier thn it has been with the two youngr ones the young male is at a point where he is on the same page as the two adults but the young female still remains a challenge and thats why I do additional trining with her on her own and am now thinking that until I hve more confidence with her I will keep on her lead at all times when we are out even when she is with the others and they my not be

I was very aware the bordeaux was submissive I actually say so in the vieo an I agree if sh didnt behve as she did things could have ben differnt

This is not what I think of as "she saw it as a game."

The effects of such a "game" on the dog being bullied can be permanent and not at all positive.


.... it is important for me to learn and be confient i hav a much control as I need. I've been lead to understand that I should confront situations and not avoid them o control hem when things get difficult bcause we cant always control what goes on around us

Steve's assessment of getting the control you need is the logical one, IMO: work with each dog separately. You don't have the control over them to do what you are doing (taking them all out in public). I don't know if it's even possible to have the necessary control of a pack of that size and number to have them out together in crowds. I do know it's not necessary and I think that to do it is a dangerous kind of game-playing.

I don't get it. Why would you not be doing the work with each dog that needs to be done? Obviously, you have experience. Why court disaster?



BTW, I (and I am sure others) appreciate members like you who post clips and are then willing to discuss any criticism that might come up without taking offense and leaving in a huff.