 Re: How to know when a dog knows a command
[Re: Connie Sutherland ]
#383872 - 10/08/2013 11:14 PM |
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Re: How to know when a dog knows a command
[Re: Duane Hull ]
#383873 - 10/08/2013 11:12 PM |
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In the VERY beginning, you are teaqching that the mark/reward is the ultimate greatest thing that can happen. Non-compliance is ignored, and good reps are marked. As the reward becomes more important, non-compliance will disappear. If non-compliance is because of a distraction, engagement is the issue, and there's tons of material here on the importance of and how to improve engagement. Random non-compliance indicates that the behavior is not fully trained or ready to be proofed.
You are approaching this from the perspective of how to correct the dog if he doesn't perform. The core principle of marker training is to increase the dog's motivation until he looks forward to doing it. There are things that you can do in your training technique to improve engagement and motivation.
Corrections for non-compliance are given to dogs who are properly trained. You are starting out, and there's no way your dog understands training or failure, much less what the consequences for failure are.
Thank you, that's what I was asking. So non compliance is ignored.
That's why I'm so confused and stuck on corrections, I'm hearing over and over that you never let a dog get away with not doing the command and I wasn't sure how to do that.
Thank you again
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Re: How to know when a dog knows a command
[Re: Natalie Rynda ]
#383875 - 10/08/2013 11:32 PM |
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The dog MUST be solid on the command under all aspects of time, distance and distraction! Then a correction can be applied but my thinking is that a command taught with something the dog loves, be it food or toy isn't going to be ignored unless that time, distance or distraction is to great.
Why would a dog take a correction for refusing a command that has a high value reward?
Simple. The dog is confused by one of three things. The time has been moved along to fast, the distance has been moved to far or the distraction is to great.
Proof time, distance, distraction individually and never put any of the three together until they are individually solid under.....guess what...Time, distance, distraction. 
old dogs LOVE to learn new tricks |
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Re: How to know when a dog knows a command
[Re: Connie Sutherland ]
#383877 - 10/09/2013 12:49 AM |
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"The times he's distracted and doesn't sit I'm not sure what to do."
You are not going to have those times. You are going to proof for distractions before you command him with distractions.
I'm saying it every way I know.
We do know it's a concept that takes a leap to fully grasp .... I work with dog owners all the time, and this is a major sticking point ..... that the dog is not failing to comply until he KNOWS (including proofing for venue, distraction, distance, and everything he will encounter) the command. We don't correct for non-compliance of something the dog didn't KNOW, right? And knowing includes all that proofing.
Was there a need for this?
I explained what my confusion was (Duane explained it so I'm no longer confused), it's the fact that I hear repeatedly that you never let a dog get away with not performing a command and then being told that I don't correct until he fully knows the command.
So was it really unreasonable for me to wonder how I make sure of that?
Duane explained it, I let the dog get away with it in the learning stage.
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Re: How to know when a dog knows a command
[Re: Ramachandran Subramanian ]
#383881 - 10/09/2013 12:17 AM |
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"How to know when a dog knows a command"
The scientific answer is "you never know...ever"
lol, i was thinking the same thing.
if the theory is that the same command at every new place is a new command then the dog never truly learns the command. 5 years from now i take him to a zoo he's never been to and tell him to SIT and he won't know what i want.
if the theory is that after a certain number of new places he learns that the command applies to all places, then the question is "how many new places does it take?"
question for you though. so you never correct for obedience? even after they supposedly know the command and don't do it?
so then how do you make sure they always comply?
If you can upload a youtube video of your training issue we can help you better
i don't have problems now, everything is clear for now)))) i will wait until he surprises me again and will video it then
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Re: How to know when a dog knows a command
[Re: Bob Scott ]
#383882 - 10/09/2013 12:25 AM |
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All the above! Proof, proof, proof constantly.
Distraction, distance and duration are never added at the same time.
If the dog is ignoring the command then figure out why.
What situation did it happen in?
Was he paying more attention to something else?
Is either you distance, time, or distraction to much for the level the dog is at?
I'm not a big believer when I hear someone say "my dog KNOWS what I told him but he's stubborn".
"Stubborn" tells me one thing. The dog is confused and that's not a correctable offense.
Proof when your training and not just hope the dog will listen. This goes for ANY command.
so you believe a dog is never being stubborn? i agree, most of the time when people say that the dog doesn't really know. but i have to imagine that even dogs that know will at some point not comply.
and thank you, i am. i'm about to start from scratch on everything i've been doing (not that i'm that far ahead))))))
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Re: How to know when a dog knows a command
[Re: Bob Scott ]
#383883 - 10/09/2013 12:30 AM |
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The dog MUST be solid on the command under all aspects of time, distance and distraction! Then a correction can be applied but my thinking is that a command taught with something the dog loves, be it food or toy isn't going to be ignored unless that time, distance or distraction is to great.
Why would a dog take a correction for refusing a command that has a high value reward?
Simple. The dog is confused by one of three things. The time has been moved along to fast, the distance has been moved to far or the distraction is to great.
Proof time, distance, distraction individually and never put any of the three together until they are individually solid under.....guess what...Time, distance, distraction.
since you're talking about corrections i'm assuming you mean the stage when a dog knows the command.
aren't at some point the treats phased out some? i thought a dog still gets treats but only every now and then and at this point is expected to listen without any rewards.
am i wrong?
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Re: How to know when a dog knows a command
[Re: Bob Scott ]
#383884 - 10/09/2013 12:37 AM |
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should i stop asking questions?
it seems like some people are already getting annoyed.
i'm surprised that i'm given problems for asking a lot of questions. i belong to a few programming boards and for the past 7 years all i've been doing is asking endless questions.
people there write code for others for free, take hours to explain how it works, modify it when the OP wants some more features and so on.
not once was i or anyone else told to stop asking questions and go to school instead.
i'm not sure what it is about me that is causing people on dog training boards to act this way.
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Re: How to know when a dog knows a command
[Re: Natalie Rynda ]
#383885 - 10/09/2013 04:39 AM |
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Natalie, please don't stop asking questions even if we sometimes seem annoyed. We're all human and sometimes can seem a bit impatient (LOL). But, also don't forget that you may interpret something differently when you read it than the poster meant when s/he wrote it.
When you ask questions, it also helps others who are new to marker training and may be confused about the terminology.
To me doing something such as "reeling the dog in" or placing a dog in a sit if the dog doesn't sit when you give a command are assists, not corrections. You're showing the dog what you wanted and helping him/her to comply.
On the other hand, if your dog is off lead or across the room from you and you are not 110% sure the dog will come if called or sit if told to sit, then don't give the command at all. Go get the dog or go to the dog prior to telling the dog to sit and that way you can assist or lure him into the sit.
I hope that makes sense and that more experienced Marker Trainers will correct me if nedded.
"A dog wags his tail with his heart." Max Buxbaum
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Re: How to know when a dog knows a command
[Re: Natalie Rynda ]
#383886 - 10/09/2013 07:25 AM |
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Is a dog never "being stubborn?"
Yesterday I was picking up walnuts on the lawn. I'm sure that they taste dreadful. The job was pick up the walnut, drop it into the pail. Reward: liverwurst. I'm pretty sure the dog knows the command. He knows "bring" and "put". After a few he quit, though he really wanted the liverwurst.
I'm not sure "stubborn" is the right word, but it seemed the dog decided this job wasn't something he was going to do. I didn't push it because I thought the walnuts might be toxic
anyway.
On the farm, my guy does decide "forget it, I'm not doing THAT." Or it seems that way. Is that just training failure? I'm OK with it if it is. We've come a long way. And even my hired man will tell you that some jobs I request are ridiculous......
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