I think Renee proved a good point. What is nice to see is things like that. While I am refering to PP trainers, it is also nice to see people like Bernhard and America's own Mike Diehl competing in the top ranks of Schutzund and have great sucess on the street. I find that amongst alot of American police dog handlers they also too run down Schutzhund, when thier own dogs are of such poor quality, that they could never make a title if trained in that fashion, let alone work the streets. With all the information out there at present, there are still by far too many uneducated dog trainers amongst all disiplines. It is bewildering to see what you see.

 Quote:

Originally posted by Don B. Ackerson:
Now put some icing on my cake, Tell me that tough ass female, was a GSD!

What kind of question is that??????, lol. OF COURSE!!!!! Fee vom Erlenbusch, SchH III, RIP (died last October). One of the greatest dogs that ever lived, IMO, and not a day goes by when I don’t think about her...

I often felt an urge to write about her, but didn’t think it was cool to brag about your own dog. I almost did in reply to a post some time ago that a dog needs to be exposed to real pain in order to proof that he/she will bite under duress. But since the cat is out of the bag, let this be a belated tribute to her.

The last time I took her to a trial was to qualify her for the Nationals. 98 in TR, don’t remember the OB score, wasn’t too high as she decided to take a little stroll during the stand out of motion. The last thing I worried about was her protection—that always had been her strongest point. Everything was going just great up to the long bite. She was the last dog in the trial, it was awfully hot, and the helper was tired on top of having a knee problem. She was going very fast, and in retrospect, what happened was that he bailed out on her and she got jammed. We all know that this can happen, but very few actually have a chance to witness this, and when it happens to your dog, it’s just awful. I couldn’t see what happened from where I was standing, all I heard was the terrible screams while she was still holding on to the sleeve. It seems like it took me forever to get to her. I outed her, and Mike West (the judge) wasn’t sure what happened either. We inspected her teeth--no problem. Mike ordered me to send her again from a short distance. She engaged and started screaming again, but did not let go until the "aus" command. At this point I was bawling, the whole stadium was bawling. Mike called me aside and said, with tears in his eyes, that although the exercise was not officially finished, she had enough points going into it to pass. He also told me that I should be proud of my dog, she is a true hero. When he announced her score--80pts pronounced, the whole stadium erupted in cheers. By the time we got to the van, she was so bad I had to lift her up. I had big burly men I’ve never seen before come up to me crying and saying they’ve never seen anything like this before. I was getting phone calls and e-mails for weeks from people asking how Fee was.

She had recovered completely (from jammed vertebrae), but I retired her after that. I could never send her on a long bite again. She may have been a tough ass, but I’m a wuss. I still cringe and try not to close my eyes during a courage test.

Renee I almost shed a tear, she was such a real heroin. I mean I don't cry, but I feel ya.

That was icing on my cake, good to know there have been and are some tough dogs in SchH, that are GSD. I've always though the SchH III dogs were near genius, its like graduating working doggy college.

All that was in her Genes not built through muzzle or the ruff stuff?

Renee aother touching memory, you were truly blessed. Not that all your hours of hard work didn't have a lot to do with her success. Thanks sharing her memory.

Don:
"she was such a real heroin."

Nah, more like PCP.

Don: "I mean I don't cry, but I feel ya."

I guess that's OK, now that we've been formally introduced... Sorry, couldn't resist <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Don:
"All that was in her Genes not built through muzzle or the ruff stuff?"

Nope, no muzzle and no ruff stuff. As a matter of fact, she's never been trained in defense. Didn't need to. She had only one mode of barking--very serious. Same bark in the blind as while playing ball with me. She was doing bark & hold on me for a ball one day at a park when a car stopped by and two guys asked me if I needed help. When I told them we were just playing, they looked at each other like I was nuts, but were very relieved for not having to interfere. Also quite handler soft.

"Not that all your hours of hard work didn't have a lot to do with her success."

I wish I could say that, lol. But not as far as protection was concerned. That was all GENES. OB & TR was another story, though...

So Rene, tell me you bred this dog.

VC, I did not breed her <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> . I was having too much fun training her and learning all I could from her. She was bred twice prior to me getting her. Once to Boomer v. Emsbogen. That resulted in at least one pup that I traced--Ditmar von Silberbach. His pedigree was quite sketchy and listed him as "Dual P.P"--dual purpose PD <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

The second time she was bred to Ben v. Kassler Kreuz (Crok son). The pick of the litter was a female who went to my good friend who died of cancer 6 mos later. Her husband sold the dog to someone in Milw. Another member of the club who always wanted to breed to Fee traced that bitch and bred her to his Gildo Korbelbach son. That produced a SUPER little bitch that could go places, but the guy ran into major personal difficulties and dropped off completely. So as you see, things don't always work the way we plan <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> .

I would LOVE to get one of Fee's progeny. Wonder if anyone heard of Ditmar? You would think that Boomer & Fee should rock... If this breeding rings the bell with anyone, please let me know.

Question - Would defensive training hurt or help a dog like Renee's super bitch? A dog with courage and tenacity like that seems she has built what most are trying to train.

Its my opinion that the ruff training if done humane (defensive training) would only enhance a dog like that (she probably enjoy it), it would be like taking a tough street figter and teaching him martial arts. He just gets better at what he does best, he is more prepared for the changes in conflicts. To the point where the dog is hardly ever surprised or confused it knows I can defeat this guy, because I been there done that. That your a&*.

If done safely would this give positive or negative results, regardless of her use in SchH, Patrol work or Pers Protec Tra.

I vote positive. Whats your Opinion?

 Quote:

Originally posted by Don B. Ackerson:
Question - Would defensive training hurt or help a dog like Renee's super bitch? A dog with courage and tenacity like that seems she has built what most are trying to train. ... I vote positive. Whats your Opinion?

Well, Don, I disagree. What Fee had was pure fight drive, which is innate to a dog, i.e. genetic. She just loved to fight, without much provocation. I asked my TD once why most of the dogs at the club were trained with some degree of defense, but never Fee. He explained that her defense threshold was so high, that one would have to hurt her real bad to bring it out, and what would be the point? She already proved later that she would not give up under more pain than any dog should ever be subjected to.

Fight drive is what everyone wants to see in their sport/PP/PD dog. You seem to subscribe to a formula fight drive = prey drive + defense drive. I believe that fight drive = prey + social aggression. Defense = defense (or the desire to protect itself). There are various manifestations of defensive behavior. I could go on and on, but this subject was already addressed by Kevin S. so well that I couldn’t do it any better:

BTW, you Don participated in that thread very actively and this was your comment: “Kevin I enjoyied reading your post”. Obviously, you forgot, or didn’t read carefully—tsk, tsk, tsk <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> .

Since all of us suffer from short attention span, I picked what’s relevant from Kevin’s post, hopefully with his permission <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> :

During normal dog training it is always best when introducing defensive behaviors to the dog that seems to need this work...

There are situations where this is done purposefully...dogs that are so locked into prey they and are of excellent nerve may need to be pushed, or dogs that have been worked in self-defense and allowed to fail may have to be pushed to get them to realize that it does work, but these are rare and extreme circumstances and are basically repairs left to very experienced decoys.

The balance of how much work in this arena is dependent on how much prey the dog is displaying, maturity, experience, and the amount of fight drive the dog displays. In a perfect world this work would be unnecessary as the dogs would possess extreme fight drive. Defense drive is a substitute for well balanced prey and fight drives and not always the best substitute. ...

Police dogs should be low in defense as selected and only brought into defense as an experience unless addressing some particular issue. Some sport people like a different balance and some might tilt the balance based on a need for better guarding in the blind or away from defense due to lousy grips. But, in an ideal world we wouldn't need it at all if the dogs all had excellent fight drive and good prey drive, and a little sharpness (don't confuse sharpness w/ self-defense here).

If you want to read this in its entirety, here goes:
http://www.leerburg.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000118

Renee you are right I use to have a problem with definitions and this could be why people felt, I was seeing things clearly. And it was cloudy.

But I really didn't mean that defense drive (its the training I was talking about nbot the drive) should be trained or is desirable in training for long sessions. I could see why it would produce a unreliable dog, If it was the dog's strongest drive. I understand how drives shift in and out why a balance is necessary, now.

What I meant was defensive training. Which as its been mentioned makes a dog more reliable and confidence by having him/her conquer various stressful challenges successfuly. And it would best if he didn't go into defense drive here, shifting from prey to fight is preferred.

I have stopped lumping the terms defense drive (the drive to defend if cornered, fight or flight) with defensive training (training used to enhance the dogs ability to defend the handler or itself).

This is how I view these terms now, I think another lady on this board translated what I meant (without all the you lame brain and you are a knuckle head comments) it really help me define/align my thoughts along with the numerous post of some the Pro trainers. Especially the Kevin S reply that you mentioned, I had to read it a couple of times, along with Lee's and RC's comment about terminology and how it changes the definition and how its understood.

With this understanding it only makes your Fee that much more amazing. It sorta like starting with a 911 Porsche intead of build a 914 into a Real Porsche. How's that for comparision? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Debbie High wrote _ Someone correct me if I'm wrong but.....Don, defense is nothing more than the desire for the dog to defend himself regardless of the reasons why...be it a cocky attitude or fear or this is my territory,etc.,etc.. Doesn't have to mean that the dog is afraid, might just mean if you don't fool with me I won't fool with you, but...you bother me I'm gonna whip your ass. In other words I will defend myself no matter what. No fear.

Reply - Thats kinda what I mean a confident dog that will defend his truff and possessions. The kind of dog that will bring the fight to you if he has to.