Donn brings up an important issue among working enthusiasts and professional working dog handlers. That is one of whether the current trends in the GSD breeding are really supportive of producing strong, healthy dogs with adaquate levels of fighting instinct. Many moons ago the SchH judge gave dogs a rating for fighting instinct and courage. The best was 10 points. No one wanted their dog sired by anything but a 10 point dog, and you looked for a 9 or 10 point bitch (though the 10 point bitch was rare there were a few) to be the mother. Since then the rating system has taken over and it is common to see the dog that loosens a grip under the stick hits, or does anything short of flight gets "pronounced". It seems that no one wants to give unsatifactory or satisfactory ratings if they can help it. This has little to do with training on a defense table except that the rating system in schh will allow anything that is more afraid of releasing the sleeve than hanging on under the moderate to light threat receive a "pronounced" rating and the table is one method of producing this.
It should be the goal of all breeders of working dogs to produce fight drive above all other drives (yep, even above prey drive especially since it is seldom seen that a dog with poor prey drive has fight drive).
It is also high time that breeders of the elegant show dogs stop pretending to have working dogs by using prey/defense techniques to produce the titles their pedigrees carry making a false statement about their working abilities.
ed, maybe this should be moved to another thread where the discussion is about fight drive and breeding.

I'd be very interested in hearing more about fight drive, should this be moved?
I've had a very hard time accepting *fight* as a stand alone drive in the non-dogfighting breeds. It always seemed to me that fight was going to evolve out of prey, ie *you aren't taking my prey prize!* or defense (self explanatory). But, I think I caught a glimmer of it in one of Ed's videos, wish I could recall which, I'll watch them again soon enough. Ed was specifically showing a dog w/fight drive, I'm sure he was a PSD, and there he was, with this look like he was just having a hoot of a time and could not wait to engage again. It *did* look different than prey or defense. Prey would have been more hectic, bouncy, vocal, etc. Defense of course gives us the lunging, etc. This dog just had this body language and expression that was different. Maybe that was fight drive?

Joy, there is a very good explanation of "fight drive" on:
http://www.leerburg.com/terms.htm

but I would definitely welcome further comments from the gentlemen above.

Renee,
Yes, I've read it several times, but I suspect it's something I really need to *see*.

Great Point that Don has!!! Once again the dollar plays the role in dogs and training.

Michael Taylor wrote: There are not many top handlers that would want a Humane Society person watching thier real training session. It is a fact.
Snip
…he does not show you the happy way to do things then kicks the shit out of the dogs when he is in private.

***** Based on this I ‘guess I’m not one of “top handlers.” I have absolutely no problem in any law abiding citizen observing my training. I’m certainly not going to invite the east block of Folsom out to watch, but I’ve had dozens of people come watch what I do. And I’ve never once had to kick the shit out of a dog to get him to do anything.

Lou, I hope I did not offend you, but while you are a respected trainer, what I have stated does go on, more often then not. My main point was not so much people having themselves filmed but that tables are being put under fire because they invovle bite training. THere is no diffrence in table training then making a dogs kneck bleed or frying a dog with the electric collar for the forced retrieve. Avoidance training when the dog is put into survival instinct is the same no matter how you dress it up, when the animal is punished with physical force that leaves an animal bloody. People seem to be more keen on the idea of the survival instict when protection training is not involved.

I have used the tables for several years and have had great success. There are several things that I am able to do with the dog on the table that I could not on the ground. We have taken weak dogs and made them stronger and out of control dogs were put under control. No beating, no blood (from me or them) When done properly the table is a calm place, with no "issues" toward the dog. Most dogs are very eager to get back onto the table after it's second or third visit.I have seen the tables abused BADLY. But I have seen other tools like pipe wrenches and screwdrivers used to kill people too...but I still use 'em. Nice page Ed, Richard

Originally posted by Richard Dickson:
I have used the tables for several years and have had great success. There are several things that I am able to do with the dog on the table that I could not on the ground. We have taken weak dogs and made them stronger and out of control dogs were put under control.
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Richard, can you elaborate more of what you mean by table training?

How you have used this to make weak dogs stronger and out of control more under control?