Jason-

My comment re the football positions had to do with Sifu's dogsports statement.
I notice that you had nothing to say refuting the army study that I mentioned.
Save your wise ass remarks for someone who cares...

Gunnar,

Sorry, I'm feeling a bit saucy this morning and I could not help but point out the very obvious flaws in your statements. Don't worry though, you will get your chance with me, I'm always making ridiculous statements.

I for one have not seen or trained enough dogs to try answering this one.

As you can see, by your own admission, you have very little knowledge.
Certainly far less than is required to be critical of a study done by those whose lives would potentially be jepordized by using the wrong dog for the job.
I am done replying to you, as it only seems to be a waste of time.
See some dogs, do some training...

Jason

I agree with you here, its hard to beleive that Brazil would be a warmer or more unpleasant then Vietnam. Brazil is not the most reknowned or known to have the best resources Army ever. But he did make a point the dog orgin is there. But stamina after the dog got use to the altitude, being better then the herder, I doubt it. A 150 plus carry weigh is heavy, in USA and Brazil.

Gunnar
I don't do protection sports, but I suspect that a 180 lb Fila, Boerboel, or some of the "Bandog" breeds would put a serious hurting on a decoy.

No doubt about it, and with the Boerboel (imaging a 180lb plus APBT not of orgin, but temperment) and Tosa you are talking pit fighter par excellent, but I don't think the Fila fits in with this group, he not a pit fighter, he is more of a Bull Matsiff estate guardian per excellent.

None of this has to be right its just my
opinion and it is protection work is not a sport Shulzthund is a sport. Protection work and PD k9 work is a profession. After being properly trained the dog feels its his job to be observant and obediant. It also include OB, Agility, item search & detection and handler protection. The dogs you mentioned can hit like a tank, but do you think they can climb the wooden stairwell heading into the ceiling to appehend a suspect? Do you think they can walk a beam, to track a suspect from point A to capture. Do you think you could pull them off a suspect before they killed him? Do you think they could fit in the backseat of a car (smile)?

Dogs do what they were bred to do best, some are estate guardians, some are born to fight&die, others are more versitle, but herder never the less. The football comparison highlight this point every dog has his position that he does well in, some can play both sides. Imagine trying to win a game with just a offensive linemen type players. Tried in 15 minutes. Game over (smile).

There is no doubt the Boerbole is a man, among dogs (in the fighting dog world). I don't own Filas so I'm not saying you are wrong but the world seem to use herders.

Guys do aliitle research and you will be suprised on how many armies use the Filas, or Caucasian mountain dogs.Don I wouldn't call the German. Isreal, or Russian armies inferior. Chew on this, the Germans ritired 7000 Causians used for border patrol after the wall came down.Isn't that the place the finest GSD come from?The football analogy is correct everyone has a job.My 60 lb. dog plays with two Caucasians and can run circles around them, but I guarantee you they will out run any man.

Milt

Gunnar quoting me:

"I for one have not seen or trained enough dogs to try answering this one."

J:
In my opinion Gunnar, in that same post I came as close to answering the original question as anyone on this thread thus far. The fact that I was referencing Ed does not matter. At least I knew what to reference, proving that I do have at least some understanding of what this thread is about. How often have you proved that on this thread? I don't know what your trying to accomplish with your input on this thread at all. You certainly are not talking about fight drive anywhere that I can see.

The reason I did not comment on the "study" you mentioned was because I did not want to offend any of our fellow Americans (Brazilians) to the south. Suffice it to say that this study, along with many others, would end up next to the toilet in my house. You can guess what I would use it for.

Milt

Guys do aliitle research and you will be suprised on how many armies use the Filas, or Caucasian mountain dogs.Don I wouldn't call the German. Isreal, or Russian armies inferior. Chew on this, the Germans ritired 7000 Causians used for border patrol after the wall came down.Isn't that the place the finest GSD come from?The football analogy is correct everyone has a job.My 60 lb. dog plays with two Caucasians and can run circles around them, but I guarantee you they will out run any man.

Don
I'd like to see that survey, but going by the source it is probably true. But 7000 is a drop in the bucket compared to the number of GSD/Mal used throughout the world. My reason for my statement is that the Caucasion is herd protector that doesn't really work well with man. He works solo.
But I guest things can change.
I stand corrected, thanks for the light.

Jason
I think you did stick to the subject, and added some glitter to it.

Gunnar
I stand corrected if, the survey Milt has presented is true.

Frederick Reese
Did you think this subject would bring this much converstaion?

UHH, no.

I have read with interest the previous postings on the topic of fight drive, in particular those referring to Filas. I certainly do not consider myself to have anything like the expertise possessed by many of the trainers on this forum, but I have have had a little exposure to service dogs over the years and have also owned a Fila for the past dozen years. Rather than talking about which has more fight drive, I tend to think more in terms of differences in approach to a combative situation. When approached by a "bad guy" the service dogs with fight drive all seemed to be saying "Oh, boy, a bad guy. Let's kick his butt and look for 10 or 11 more to do the same thing with." The Fila, on the other hand, might seem to be saying, "Looks like a bad guy. Let's despatch him as quickly as possible so I can get back to my nap." This comparison is of course not completely balanced, as it compares German Shepherds and Malinois who have been through police service training with a Fila who has not, but I nevertheless believe that it points to a basic temperament difference between at least some representatives of the two groups (Shepherd/Malinois vs. Fila)

As an aside with reference to the query made about the agility of Filas, I certainly don't think that they can compare with good working German Shepherds or Malinois. The breed is also plagued with more hip and joint problems than Shepherds or Malinois, although this is starting to be addressed. Notwithstanding this, however, my own bitch was surprisingly agile in her youth. For example, she could jump into the back of a half-ton truck from a standstill with no apparent effort.

What I find almost hilarious is the "my breed is better than your breed" stuff when it comes to stuff like this.

Fight drive should perhaps have different terminology. Fight drive is NOT just the desire to fight. IT is a complicated psychological aspect of working dogs. Are APBT's game? Good ones are. Are they the most game? Perhaps. I own two. Jury is still out. The Airedale Terrier is by fighting record the most game, according to history of dogfighting.

Is the AB game? NO. Gameness and doing protection work are probably mutually exclusive, thus eliminating GSD's, Rottie's, Dobie's, Malinois and other non-terrier based dogs from "gameness" definitions. What they are is different, no better, no worse, just different.

GSD's excel at "working" because of their versatility. They may not be exactly the "greatest" at anything, but they are certainly above average in just about everything, except for brute strength. That is why they are used so often in police, protection, schutzhund and other activities. Not because they are a "super-dog" but because they are incredibly versatile and intelligent and conform well to instruction (as a whole).

I have been around and worked a ton of breeds and can honestly say that I have yet to find the "super-breed". All dogs have been bred to a specific purpose and yes there are exceptional examples (The most titled dog in existence today is an APBT, but he is an anomoly among them), but some dogs are versatile, others are purpose specific. I would not be surprised to find that the Fila is a great Jungle dog. I did my service in Central America, and yes they are more genetically predisposed to Jungle work, no heavy coat etc, but I had an AB with me who outperformed the Fila's in the DITF on every occasion. Is this characteristic maybe maybe not, just remember that every dog can be conditioned and trained for just about any purpose, if done by a professional and done correctly.

Thanks for letting me ramble....