Bronco is a finish show champion, Qastra is SG-rated, her sister is V-rated:
http://www.dobermann.com/ascomann_2.htm

Here is a translation I found of the ZTP:
http://www.finographics.com/schutzhund/ztp.html

Here is the highlight:

Special attention should be paid to faults which would affect working ability, such as a weak muzzle, long weak back, faults of front and rear legs as well as bad movement. !! Deviation in body dimensions by more than 2 cm have to be judged by reduction of conformation ratings. Greater deviations are leading to exclusion of breeding. Robert

 Quote:

Originally posted by nancylm:
JQP doesn't get a Doberman to have a black and tan Lab - they get a Doberman because they want a dog that has the intellegence and capabilities of doing what the intent for the breed is - companion protector.

I have to comment on that statement. John Q. Public doesn't have a clue about the capabilities of a breed most of the time. I operate my business out of a vet's office and see more mis-matched dog/owner combos every day than I care to think about. The average guy (John Q.) has an IDEA of what he thinks a breed IS. YIKES!!! We had a lady bring her dog in the other day for a routine neutering......she said the breeder lied to her and that her dog must be a mix, not purebred. When we asked her why, she replied, "because my dog can bark!" I still didn't understand so I asked her what she meant. She said because her dog was supposed to be a MALA-"MUTE". True story. :rolleyes: So who is at fault here?? Breeder (who probably doesn't have a clue either) or ignorant puppy buyer.??

My experience with JQP has been one of frustration. All you can do is try to educate them and hope they end up with the right dog, more for the dog's sake than anything!! Needless to say a working bloodline dog in the hands of the average person (whether Doberman, Rottweiler or Border Collie) can be a disaster unless education takes place.

And to keep this on topic, breeding American show lines into working lines to make them more manageable for the 'average' dog owner is not the way to deal with this issue. IMO. Direct that person to a breed better suited for them.

Thanks for the links - will go check them out. Obviously that is for another country, right?

As far a JQP - I agree, most don't have a clue, but assuming that they are all as stupid as those you might occassionally run into is a pretty generalized assumption. I would almost agree except you and I are part of the JQP as well, aren't we <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

So then you are saying we should for sure keep all 'American lines' seperate from all 'working' lines - again, assuming you are talking about something like actual work, i.e. police, sar, narc, etc. Then which do we choose for the purpose that the breed has been accepted in this country and for which it supposedly was originated, as a companion protector? Do we select the 'working lines' - high drive police dogs or the seperate 'American show lines' - wussy good for nothings? What would you suggest I get for a companion protection dog?

and don't say GSD - too darn much hair!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

 Quote:

Originally posted by nancylm:

As far a JQP - I agree, most don't have a clue, but assuming that they are all as stupid as those you might occassionally run into is a pretty generalized assumption. I would almost agree except you and I are part of the JQP as well, aren't we <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I don't run into these folks OCCASIONALLY. It's more like regularly! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> I don't think they are all stupid--just very ignorant or misinformed.

I may be part of the JQP in everyday life but in "dog life" I feel a little more educated than the average guy. OK, a lot more. LOL

For that reason, I don't reccomend protection breeds (or herding breeds or some of the terriers as well) without knowing volumes about the person I am dealing with. I see too many unhappy situations.

The people on this board are a microscopic blip on the screen of dog owners out there. you guys are cool, looking for knowledge and sharing what you know to help other dog people.

Most folks know as much about dogs as I do about car engines.... Anyone who knows me knows that I know JUST enough to be dangerous. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

nancylm,

A dobe breed in america is fine. Just need to get the right one

Look for names like Weyermuhle, Mooriche, Bayern, Nyphemburg, Ellendock, Eschenhof, Kloster-Komp, Forrel in the pedigree.

Go to http://www.dobermann.com and look at the breeding anouncements. Check out http://www.uniteddoberman.com. You can find a good kennel you just have to look.

Robert

but aren't those working/sporting lines for the most part? Do you thing obtaining a dog with the drives necessary to accomplish what these line accomplish in the sport venue is what the average American seeking a companion protection dog needs? Why would you assume that the 'watered down versions' can't accomplish the desired purpose of companion protector? And I am not discussing byb dogs that no one with any knowledge of the breed and temperaments is breeding, but dogs that are bred by people that ARE concerned about all four aspects - health, temperament, structure and type? Why is it so difficult to assume that these dogs can't be companion protectors? What is/are the main characteristic(s) that the Doberman Pinscher is to have to be capable of accomplishing this purpose? Is it the same as that required to be a sporting or police dog?

I guess I look at it like this--- if I want a family safe car I don't buy a Pinto- I buy the top rated car for safety which is probably a Volvo. If I am going to buy a dog for "companion protection" then I buy something that will come through if need be, not just bluff itself into running home.....Most American show lines of any breed are lacking the qualities they were originally bred for, besides the working line dogs are bred for quality, temperament, structure,and working ability. Working dog breeders everywhere are trying to preserve what the dog was indeed intended for, why breed dogs back into the line that do not possess these traits?

Nancy,
Besides the 4 characteristics you listed that all responsible breeders are hopefully looking to preserve in their lines is the 5th thing that determines whether the dog can do it's job correctly and safely.

That is the handler/owner/environment.

Karmen, Ditto! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Working dog breeders will be the first to tell you that not every pup in a litter will all be equal to the tasks they breed for. Show breeders will tell you not all pups will be champions. I would love to see an honest CH with an honest SCH 111, and maby they are out there now. I don't believe show dogs have to be lacking in working ability, and I don't believe true working dogs have to be "ugly".IMO, I personelly think most of the working dogs I've seen are much classier than the show type dogs but both sides do have their extreme breeders. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />