OK, I like Rotts, I'd own one if I had the kennel space, but I have to object to the comment about hard hitting dogs.

The American BullDog can hit pretty damn hard (my best friend has one in training for NVBK), the Rottweiler can hit pretty damn hard, but I have never caught a harder hitting dog than the GSD. Sorry guys, there are no harder hitting dogs. Second is the Malinois. . .no question.

It is a matter of genetics. Hard hits don't necessarily mean better fighting dogs, but that first strike power chest-level flying hit of the shepherd breeds is unmatched. Years and years and years of Schutzhund breeding for exactly that one defining moment in the courage test makes for a very hard hitting dog.

The other breeds are playing catch up.

And yes I've caught some very hard Rotts. Jeneck's Falcor put me on my ass at 115lbs of all muscle. I wouldn't want to hit the ground and have to tangle with that dog, but he wasn't nearly as hard hitting as half the good GSDs I've caught or seen caught. Ask any helper that has worked a bunch of different breeds.

The added weight and momentum after the hit is hard to deal with, and can easily pull you down (not to mention a pain in the ass to drive and fight the dog with), but the actual hit isn't harder than a Shepherd. Sorry, not even close. . .

How many helpers go down on the ground at the ADRK championships? How many helpers go down in the BSP or WUSV? Hello? And I'd bet money that the BSP/WUSV helpers are not going down because they don't know what they are doing.

Have you been hitting the crack pipe again VC???

Ok, I can't resist this. It probably should be on new thread because this will get long.
1. I've only been hit by Malinois and it was a very light dose, so it's hard for me to say.
2. If I'm not mistaken Joe's Rott is very lean.
3. Many GSDs and some Mals wiegh more than his Rott. I think I've seen a seminar picture.(not sure)
4. I can't say, but it would seem to be that very lean Rotts, Dogos, ABs, and 55lb APBTs would hit VERY hard.
5. One things for sure, if your dog did encounter that real life Rambo, he could put his hand in the mouth of the Shepherd and break the jaw. He could not with a jaw of a breed like the ones I mentioned.
6. I think there's two sides to every coin many times.
7. One the jaw break, that's if you figure your luck is so bad you were destined to lose the battle.
8. The Malinois I think hits the hardest in some ways but that's the suit. A tough man could wrestle it much easier than a Rott.

It's too bad they don't have a test to show the pounds of pressure moved when hitting something solid, like an electric tool to see which generally hits the hardest for dogs. It would be fun to see.

You should be able to do the math to determine the which breeds hit the hardest on a courage test. Its been a long time since I took physics, but if the dog is completely airborn before the hit, it is only a question of inertia (Mass X velocity (?)). If the dog's feet have not completely left the ground you then also have to factor in acceleration.

Break a bite trained dog's jaw? I'm not the one smokin' crack bro.

I don't care what breed it is, that is the business end of the dog. I don't think someone is breaking a dog's jaw with his bare hands.

 Quote:

if the dog is completely airborn before the hit, it is only a question of inertia (Mass X velocity (?)). If the dog's feet have not completely left the ground you then also have to factor in acceleration.

Momentum=Mass x Velocity. This is at the crux of things. 1 kg moving at 2 meters per second has the same momentum as 2kg moving at 1 meter per second.

A discussion of intertia, in the real world, would make more sense as far as catching and holding in one place. Obviously, all other things being equal, a non-moving 100 pound dog is gonna be harder to move than a non-moving 50 pound dog. It's kind of related to momentum, but momentum has specific bearing on motion and direction(vector). Intertia; "a body in motion tends to stay in motion unless acted on by an outside *force*." But also "A body at *rest* tends to stay at rest unless acted on by some outside force." Momentum is applicable here...velocity and direction.

As far as acceleration goes, I think you mean...well, I'm not sure what you mean actually.

Acceleration of a body (positive or negative) creates *force*. Force=Mass x Acceleration.

A dog runs and then jumps for a bite and latches onto a body, which is, let's say not moving. The quicker the dog's motion stops, the more force will be created. So, let's say the dog jumps to bite a 1000 pound human. That human ain't going anywhere, so a tremendous amount of force will be transmitted to the dog (his mouth, neck, teeth etc), and the chunk of flesh to which he attached.

Will as much force be created if the same 100 pound dog (running at the same velocity) latches onto a 50 pound human. No. The dog's momentum is going to carry the child with the dog. The acceleration (in this case negative) will be less rapid, and less force will be transmitted to both the part of the body being bitten and the dog.

But when a dog doesn't jump, the friction of the ground acts on his feet to slow the velocity (once he gets a bite, that is), and often he himself (the dog) volitionally slows down right before the bite. So, for all practical purposes, all other things being equal, much less force will be transmitted to both dog and human when the dog stays on the ground.

So to knock a guy on his arse, I'll take the light, fast, air born dog.

If I want to catch hogs, I'll use a big land lubber.

1000 pound human? have you met my in-laws? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

So, yeah...this isn't as straight forward as making one device to measure all these inter-twined real-world variables.

Now, I don't even own a dog, but....breaking it's jaw? Wtf..?

Steven,
Thanks for the clarification on the physics. In regards to acceleration, I was trying to get across that once the dog left the ground, he could not create any more force so the only factors would be mass and speed. If he was jumping into the person, prior to all feet leaving the ground the dog could also be accelerating so there could be a force generated different from that of momentum.