Slowride...I sincerely appreciate your efforts in placing a spayed/neutered pup that has issues who would not be suitable in family, show or whatever instead of what a lot of "occasional" breeders do and that is kill the pup(s) or send them to the local pound to be killed. At least you are being responsible for what you have produced and see to it that these pups are not reproducers.
I for one..only have so much room in my rescue area for fosters from those who take the other approach and dump them with no conscience.

I run a rescue and would not help a breeder unless the sire and dam were spayed - if you are breeding dogs that you feel are, and 2 from one litter you said were "both painfully timid with a strong chance of growing up to be "fear biters" stop breeding those dogs, and maybe learn a bit before you breed AT ALL It is no excuse to say you are not a "breeder" when you have had 3 litters and are expecting a fourth. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Laureen...why in the world would you refuse help? That makes no sense to flat out refuse unless "your" conditions were met. What about the animals?
There are going to be "shy" pups, there are going to be "outgoing" pups..it's a given thing. There will also be those pups who where "bred" for show but don't measure up to the "perfect" and are sold or placed in hopefully loving lifelong homes with the stipulation of spay/neuter and sometimes the placement of human family comes as a referal from a rescue. Would you then insist upon the dam and sire to be altered too before you would help? Not everyone is born "perfect" but time, attention and socialization goes a long way for a timid pup to become a wonderful companion.

Just my two cents...if you can't hang on to the pup until it is sold to a proper home, don't breed.

I agree Todd - and Barbara most rescues run the same way - it's common sense really - if they can't find homes don't breed - am I to place dogs from a breeder and let pound dogs die in the meantime - only to have him on my doorstep come next litter? No way. They need to take responsibility for what they produce and not hope the rescue fairy makes it all better. Ethical breeders find homes for their pups or take back ones that are returned. What rescue do you run? Do you have a site I can look at?

Barbara, I can see why there is the spayed/neutered rule. If the dogs have produced puppies that ended up in rescue then what's the chance of future pups landing in the same situation? I'd say it was pretty good. And by taking the dogs, rescues take the responsibility off of the person, which would make them even more likely to repeat the ill fated breeding if the animals weren't altered. Reproducing the bell curve is easy; it shouldn't be a breeder's goal. The goal should be to produce litters that are consistent and above average. There are many average and even some above average dogs in rescue so there is no need to produce even more of them intentionally.

Hi -
Just like alot of people, I have had to learn via mistakes. The 2 pups I had to place for free were from our first litter, a bit over 4 years ago - and that was because (WRONG I now know) I agreed to breed with a friend's dog in exchange for one of my dogs pups. Since they had alot of books, and went to the german shepherd club, and their dog looked and behaved sound, I was under the impression they were knowlegable people. After that experience I was so daunted that it was 2 years before I bred my girl again.

Why breed my possibly defective dog again? I'd had her brother before that and they both had the same SOLID, sound, completely reliable and very intelligent nature. Above all, with small children, these 2 were the best dogs I'd ever seen of any kind. They seemed to enjoy what would drive another dog past the brink, lie down with the kid and ask for it. Am I wrong for seeing this as a very desirable trait? In a dog that was still top notch home protection?

The 2nd litter my vet put me onto an old guy who had raised GSD for 25 years for a stud dog, and that batch of pups was wonderful. A couple people called from outa the blue, wanting "pup like that". Her third litter, 2 were sold before they even got here. We've not had one flaky pup since.

I might not ever produce a working police dog out of our humble (heaven forbid!) yard... I would love to, but I am realistic. A good foundation dog would cost more than I paid for my scoot. Mine are not the very finest dogs money can buy. But they are Good Dogs. They deserve good humans and I do everything in my ability to insure that. Though I never heard the shepherd rescue had a spay the parents policy, I figured that is was my responsibility to ensure these pups well beging untill they were placed. I thought the "rescue" part of rescue was for truly homeless dogs, or death of owners, emergencies like that.

Always
Bobbie

I have volunteered for many years now with the local Shepherd rescue, and have learned alot in the process. I know that we have helped to place breeders dogs without a sire/dam spay/neuter agreement. The dogs we have placed have generally been older dogs that were returned to her or were show ring dropouts. She gets them spayed/neutered and we place them. In exchange for this help she donates part of her puppy sale proceeds to the rescue and is involved with the rescue. We have never had a problem doing this for her. On the other hand we have gotten in many dogs from another breeder who actually will turn in a litter to the pound along with the mother when she cant sell them, the shelter then calls us and we evaluate the dogs and see if they are placeable- sometimes they are not. If this breeder were to call us and ask for our help directly, the answer would be a resounding Hell No!!.

Slowride, I am not sure how comfortable I would have been placing the pups you did , when you said that they had extremely unstable temeperments with a high probability to be a fear biter, thats a huge liability on you and the rescue, escpecially if the problem was evident at that young age. I have never bred a dog and honestly have no immediate plans to, so I cannot say whats right and wrong but I am curious as to why the new owners did not question you about your reasoning and why they would still choose to adopt the pups?

 Quote:

Originally posted by GSDSAR:
Slowride, I am not sure how comfortable I would have been placing the pups you did , when you said that they had extremely unstable temeperments with a high probability to be a fear biter, thats a huge liability on you and the rescue, escpecially if the problem was evident at that young age....... but I am curious as to why the new owners did not question you about your reasoning and why they would still choose to adopt the pups?

Here's a real valid question of ethics. 2 pups out of a litter were timid and could not be coaxed to come to anyone but the bitch's owner. What have other's done in this case? Surely somebody here has had a really frightened pup in a litter? What did you choose to do?

The best I could figger was "delegate" to my vet and the lady I knew in rescue, I was in a position where I couldn't tell what was right - and I just couldn't make myself take them out and shoot them. I dont believe my vet woulda put them down if I'd asked - if he thought adopting them out was wrong he'd have told me so and refused to help. I didn't think the rescue lady would have suggested I put them down. It could be, though, that I looked for help from the folks who'd agree to "do it my way"

The puppy's were each adopted by someone referred by my vet. He'd seen one of the pups when I'd asked there help. They knew of the shyness problem, and treated the pups kindly.

I'd really like to hear what others with ALOT more experience than me have done in this dilemma.

Always
Bobbie

I'd really like to hear what others with ALOT more experience than me have done in this dilemma. Like I said. I would have kept them. Trained them up and kept them until I found the correct match. Unless you are prepared to raise the entire litter and keep them for yourselves don't breed. Now I know I have a different set up than most. However, I didn't always have this set up. And guess what...I didn't breed. Also, if I had to place any of my pups in a 'rescue' situation. I would have had the bitch spayed. Just me though...