Todd – no harm intended, but I will try to re-phrase, and thanks Don, one can always count on you to turn down the heat:

Well – I have no bone’s to pick with you to start off with, I understand where you are coming from, I think? –maybe if you had explained this packaged thing some more, but boot camp no way, I will not buy in to a dog trained obedience in two weeks, well maybe a sit, heel, stay, come, – very-very basic but the full drill, distance control – off lead etc no way.

Wait, come to think of it – if as you claim -this is possible then I say it wont last – just as soon as the credit card deal hits the account and you spend it, thats how fast the training will dissapear, no man can read the commands and body language and still get the same performance out of the dog as what the trainers did, so you are starting on a bad parr , just by buing a "trained " pp- that’s my point it will fade

But Hay, you can not be honestly wanting to convince a man that works with dogs 7 days a week 365 and ¼ 1days a year that training a dog and then putting him with a ( person) not even a handler heels better and or similar results to a dog trained with a handler ( a person that understands dogs/training and behaviour) over say a six month period from a fresh.

Well you have the five year quote - we trained some dogs for the "s....." embasy in pretty much the same fashion and guess what, it's been two years and they know nada, why, they were not in class after that, and they did not have handlers, they had persons

The standard and type of training just does not compair what you are talking about is just not in the same standing as a "handler and dog" training combo - protection dog training, I think that settles my point

Todd, while I'm sure you have had success with your training program, I'm sure you would agree that the OPTIMAL way to train is both handler and dog together as one unit.
I for one, would NEVER send my dog away for anyone else to train. I may be relatively new in training to the advanced levels for competition( I will try this with my new puppy)but that is so much of the joy in having a dog, why have someone else do it? Plus, it is what helps to establish that special bond.....

ahhh, but see this is what everyone is missing...

this thread was about the general public. I mentioned a case of a dog that was dominant in the general publics hands. Not a competition dog, not a professional trainer, not a pp dog.

The general public. Optimal way is with owner and dog. However, again the general public doesn't always operate optimally.

Yes, I can take a dog and in two weeks get it better trained than 90% of the general publics dogs out there. Would it be acceptable if in my house...not nessicarily. But then again, how many of the general public needs off leash at a distance?

Would I even begin to think or state I could do this with a pp dog, or a compition dog? Hell no. Basic pet foo foo...yeah.

Well Todd

That settles that, but what about Tamy’s requirement, you feel that ob should not necessarily require off lead or distance control Yes/no?

1very good ob, i need to be able to control this animal under all circumstances.

2 dog that is able to go out with me in public. after all what good is he/she if i have to leave at home or locked up.

3 be honest with me. by this i mean work with me and for me. i want a partner. i need to be able to trust his/her instincts even if i may not agree with them. this is where good ob would come in.

4 a dog that will bite for real

So what would you give her and how long will it take, remember she could be General Public - Haha

Again we are talking about 2 different things. The small fraction of dog owners that want a PP dog, and the vast majority that don't.The majority want a dog they can take for a walk that will obey on leash, because it is never off leash. All my dogs have off leash control, but they are never off leash when we go out. The only time they are off leash is when we train. If the owner is willing to do some basic up keep on the commands I don't think that it would take very long at all to make a dog, espicially an adult dog, to understand some very basic commands on leash.

Well Richard – The magic word is want, I think the General public in general want many things, it is human.

But when it comes to dogs, I think they would also like to have the PP, but wisely I think,- with very little education of people - they know that things with sharp ends can hurt you so handle with care or stay clear, in this instance the dogs mouth being the sharp end. -And no thanks to the Media for making sure that people get the full story on every dog bite - so dogs are widely percieved as viciouse animals.

And they – the general public thus - stay away from trained dogs,and things with sharp ends because of this perception - wisely

So it could be argued that to a degree “Money”, Desire, and usefulness has some role to play – just before stupidity gets a better chance, so luckily not many people are willing to take a chance on things that they do not know or part with a well trained dog for next to nothing, thank the heavens for that.

So yes you have the family that’s happy with “Happy” the poodle and then you have the next door neighbour that feels safe with only his picket fence.

But -For the rest of us, there is always the fun of dog training every weekend, and PP dogs in and around the house – Great – so yes it could be two things if you look at it again, who can help?

Matt Moore,
You should seek an education before you speak about things that you seem to know nothing about, like firearms.

MM : "Do I trust the average person with carrying a loaded pistol around? um... NO..."

Sorry to inform you, but CCW holders that carry firearms fulltime have a lower accidental discharge rate than uniformed LEO's. The CCW owners also have a lower rate of criminal conduct than LEO's. These facts have displayed for the public constantly since the CCW laws began increasing in popularity in the U.S.

People that carry firearms without a CCW are called *criminals*. Criminal are stupid. There's a big difference here that you can't seem to grasp.

MM: "it has ZERO to do with whether a PP dog is well behaved or not, it has everything to do with the dog/gun's capabilities, and my percieved lack of confidence in the average person's mental/physical capabilities

thoughts?:

Get off your elitist high horse and examine facts instead of relying on your "perceptions". It will make you sound a little smarter. :rolleyes:

Todd - When I first moved here there was a law of once and done. You bit once, you were put down, no exceptions. It was even to the point if someone broke into your house and the dog bit them, the dog was put down for biting a human. We have since changed things!!!

My Reply - Sometimes its good to be in Hick town, USA we have the "Make my Day Law" and "CCL" if a guy gets caught in your house he bought and paid for. Only your moral judgement of his intent can spar him, he can be bit and shot.

Its still hard on visitors the way our L.E.O. approach vehicles on traffic stops. They complain that they felt like they were gonna be drawn down on. But you gotta walk a mile in the Officers shoes, alot W-E coast gang members and drugs transport from across the border, a LEO could die pretty easily.

Anyway half the GP have Rottiweiler, Pit bulls, Dobermanns and some GSD, along with toys dogs. Most homes have two or more dogs. Most use and want the big dogs to protect or defend their property.

But here its still the wild wild west sometimes, I can't tell you the comforting feeling of having the smirks wipe off a group of mens face as the odds even out 3 or 3, instead of 1 on 3. They walk up on your campsite thinking its just you and there greeted with growling barking teeth. As they put, Yipes I guess it's time to mosey on.

Some of us JQP need and want PP dogs, I've had buddies beaten pretty badly in the woods camping or fishing by themself.

Like its was mentioned not wants or needs a PPT dog, some think its purpose is barbaric just like the gun.

 Quote:

Originally posted by Will Rambeau:
Matt Moore,
You should seek an education before you speak about things that you seem to know nothing about, like firearms.

Sorry to inform you, but CCW holders that carry firearms fulltime have a lower accidental discharge rate than uniformed LEO's. The CCW owners also have a lower rate of criminal conduct than LEO's. These facts have displayed for the public constantly since the CCW laws began increasing in popularity in the U.S.

People that carry firearms without a CCW are called *criminals*. Criminal are stupid. There's a big difference here that you can't seem to grasp.

Get off your elitist high horse and examine facts instead of relying on your "perceptions". It will make you sound a little smarter. :rolleyes:

Wow, I seem to have hit a nerve (darn those low thresholds <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> )

FWIW, in my mind, someone who has a CCL (concealed carry license) would not qualify as an "average gun owner"....

hate to indorm you, but there are many more gun owners than CCL owners.... take my state of Maryland for example.. it is very difficult for an average person to gain a CCL, but there are no unusual restrictions on gun ownership... I own a few firearms, and routinely transport them to the local shooting range, where I load, fire, and unload my weapons.. all this w/o a CCL..... guess I am a criminal.... :rolleyes:

second, I would love to see the stats on CCL verses LEO... seems to me the numbers would have to have an awefully high error rate, since one cannot effectively report individual's "accidental discharges", whereas LEOs have to report all ammunition expenditures...

for the record I am not a LEO,so I have no elitist "high horse" to get off of... I am merely speaking from personal opinion.. as all of us are in this thread <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

and further, it is not criminal to carry a firearm w/o a CCL, one simply cannot "conceal" the weapon.. hence the "C" in CCL.... there are many states with "un-concealed carry laws". Perhaps you should get an education before you speak on such subjects... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />