John,
Yours is a very good post, and probably summarizes my thoughts in the most civil way possible. Unfortunately, I've been up working for the past 40 hours and the caffeine has made me irritable.

Mike,
Do you think that running and screaming at the dog while waving palm fronds is a realistic real life encounter. In my youth, I grew up in a high crime area in a NE city and was never once concerned because street thugs were carrying palm fronds or a bucket of water. I don't care if the helper is in a bite suit running at, and screaming at the dog while waving flaming batons - I can train a dog to handle all of that in pure prey.

Do I think there is anything wrong with training a dog for ASR - No. Would I enter my dog in an ASR trial - maybe, it sounds like fun for both me and my dog. Do I think that an ASR trial provides any better insight into a dogs character than Sch or FR, absolutely not and none of your reasoning holds water.

Scott,
Just saw your post and agree that ASR sounds like a fun activity.

Mike,
1996 Sch III Nationals in VA. I can't remember the dog or handler at this point, but this dog came in and took a brief, but I'm sure painfull chest bite on the decoy after the blind search. Back in the early 90's I took several bites in trials that were not on the sleeve.
Do I think that Sch score are the end all for breeding evaluation, of course not. But I do think that everything that you need to know about a dog's character for working purposes can be discerned in Sch training.

Keep in mind that though it is a great hook, no Police Department is going to accept an ASR or any other sport title as a certification for a dog. They have their own certification process. If they want to compete, they compete against each other in a trial sponsered by an Association of Police dog trainers/handlers. No civilians allowed.

Many organizations have set up trials to get more "real life". But the true variables of real life can't be controled or duplicated. If they were it would be a test of the handler more than the dog. The very first thing you can't replicate is the emotions of the people involved. You can't remove the sent of the previous dogs working on the equipment. And no trial is a total suprise attack. Don't sell the dogs short. They can and do recognize the difference in a trial and real life. Just taking them to a trial field will cue most seasoned dogs that something is up.

Having watched many NAPD trials before they folded, I watched several dogs taking much higher distrations and threats than described by the ASR trial. The top dog in the sport was a PH2 import. All his bites were in prey. The dog would endure anything to make his bite. Buckets of water, hoses, squirt guns, obsticals, leaf blowers, distraction suits, and a whole host of other things. The dog's biggest down fall was the result of his prey orientation, which was encouraged by his handler, he failed on the call off about 30% of the time. The handler thought that was fine. It meant that when the dog didn't 0, he scored highly.

Oh yeah: Unless they have changed the rules a sleeve bite is encouraged in SchH, but not required.

I've said the phrase "I'm not knocking Schutzhund" countless times, as I participate in it myself and am very committed. I am only explaining the differences between ASR and a sport "like" Schutzhund. Again, it's not about which tasks are more difficult, but which are more practical for the real world. And that's the whole philosophy behind American Street Ring. Like Scott said, it's not better or worse than any sport, just more practical. Anybody stuck on one sport is going to disagree, but common sense tells me, when theres a more practical test, there's a more practical evaluation in return.

And to say defense drive is not a character trait is just....well nevermind, lol.

Mike you cant just keep thumbing your nose at Sch. and then keep saying"Im not knocking it". Thats being very Eddie Haskel. Just go ahead and say your knocking it. You opinion wont crush anybody or make them stop participating in it. I havent seen an ASR trial but I have seen a PSA trial and was dissapointed. What I saw at that trial was a bunch of spazzed out dogs with shallow bites, dogs thats obedience was terrible, and no working relationship with thier handlers.I saw almost every dog before it went on the field get the crapped yank out of it on a prong as they were getting ready or getting shocked with an e-collar as they were getting ready to go on the field.I even saw one person stop in the middle of the excersise ,put an e-collar on the dog and start over with the collar on.That was done by one of the founding members of the sport. I saw dogs that screwed up on the field, punished with a prong collar after they got off the field.I was very unimpressed by the whole "realistic" working dog sport. I didnt see anything that made me think, WOW !, this is some seriouse stuff. I thought a person could take a good shutzhund dog, training for this and smoke every body in it. I also thought about the quality, and knowledgable trainers there are in shutzhund and how this "realistic" working dog sport looked like a bunch of schutzhund washouts that didnt have the patience or time to learn how to actually TRAIN thier dogs. Realistic working dog sports sounds like a good idea but based on only what I saw it was a joke. I know I cant speak for every one in the sport.Im sure there are good trainers in it somwehere. With all that being said I dont think that you can say by any means that these "realistic sports" are a better test of the dogs temperment or test of what the dog is made of,,,all you can do is compare the exercises in it.Wich is just a matter of training for.

Thanks Chad. If you have a chance, give it a try. I think you'll like it.

Richard, I don't see anywhere in this thread where ASR is billed as a 'certification' program for Police K9's. I said 'proving ground', 'test', 'evaluation' etc....for Police TYPE dogs. No one is going to take an ASR dog and put it on the street anymore than they would a KNPV dog.....way too much to learn. But I do know that a bunch of dogs that have been trained to the standards of the lower levels are now working on the streets.

You're absolutely right when you say that reality cannot be reproduced at a trial (or training, or anywhere else). Same applies to the national K9 Certifying agencies. Don't see many bad guys hiding in a 4x4 box neatly alligned with others <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The best you can hope for is to simulate conditions one might find. In the military, we sometimes had to PT before attempting firearms qualifications to simulate combat stress (hyperventalating, adrenalin, muscle fatigue, etc), but I don't remember ever having to run laps around the kennel before going out on patrol.

I don't think that most dogs that trial in ASR work out of defense, as was commented earlier. At least not as I understand defensive drive. Quite the contrary. A dog going into defense is more likely to show poorly and not be able to take the pressure put on them by the better decoys, or just flat out get run. I do NOT include myself in this category. Most dogs that do very well are generally high in fight and/or prey drives. Overly defensive dogs don't tend to do well at much but guarding inside a fence line.

ASR is just a nice solid program that looks to test specific character traits, as do a lot of other programs.

Do I think it is the best venue to test everythig? Of course not, that would be egocentric and unrealistic.

I do however, know of a few PD's that utilize the program as part of their maintenance training (may not be perfect, but at least they TRAIN).

Bottom line, do what you like with your dogs to have fun, grow, and learn. Train for Sch, PSA, ASR, FR, BR, MR, KNPV, whatever floats your boat and is available in your area.

JUST TRAIN!

Happy and SAFE Training,
Scott

That's all I wanted to hear, someone with experience in ASR to comment on what it was really about.

Somebody close this topic, it's getting rotten.

 Quote:

Originally posted by Mike Sanchez:
Somebody close this topic, it's getting rotten.

And that, ladies & gentlemen, is the difference between fight drive and defense drive <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> .