Keep in mind that puppies go thru "fear stages" where the ODDEST things set them off! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> They naturally grow out of it, not an indication of weak nerves. If memory serves, there are 2 periods: between 12-18 weeks, and again about 6mo. I think I heard that the first one had to do with eyesight development, were suddenly they could see better, and everything looked weird to them. I may be wrong about that.

This was in reference to the comment earlier about evaluating puppies <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

My Mink g.d. is a good example of a pup many would have claimed was going thru a *fear period* at 4-5 mos (lots of *experts) tried to tell me that's what it was) she skittered away from strangers. I socialized her more. By 12 mos, she was outgoing w/strangers, she approaches, greets, gets petted, etc. It would be easy to claim it was just a fear period. But, the reality is her nerves are crap and they always were. The socialization helped teach her not to run away from strangers, but that does not mean she *grew out of* a fear period.
The truth will *always* reappear under stress. Always. You can socialize from now until the cows come home and you definitely will have a better dog. But, you won't fix the nerve problem and it will show up when the pup/dog is under stress. Guaranteed.

Hence sharpness and strong nerves are on opposite sides of the fence. Yes?

NONONONONONONONO!!!!!!!!!!

Sharpness has nothing to do with nerves. Nerve strength is different than sharpness although many dogs with weak nerves appear sharp due to low thresholds to things like survival behaviors (fight or flight behaviors). Sharpness is not sharp-shy.
A dog with good nerves and high fight drive can be sharp. A dog that is highly protective of its handler can be sharp. Please.... do not confuse piss poor temperment as being sharp. Low thresholds to some behaviors does not mean weak nerves. Low thresholds to survival behaviors, environmental insecurities, and rank behaviors are undesireable characteristics to name a few. You can equate them with weak nerves. A low threshold to combat behaviors is not weak nerves. Do not confuse combat behaviors with survival behaviors and environmental insecurities.

Even Kevin agrees with me! Ok, point taken.

My pup is 4 1/2 months, although I noticed somewhat of a "fear phase" his general temperament has been consistent. He will quickly bark and investigate anything out of the ordinary. If the person then greets him in a friendly manner he seems to recover immediatly and eagerly approaches to be petted. If the person contiues without contact he barks for a bit but looses interest. He has never shied away, approaches individual or door if a noise is heard, but often raises his hair when barking. Is this sharpness, or weak nerved defense?
I specifically wanted a dog with more defense than my current PPD and the parents of the pup were high defense dogs but with solid temperaments. Father is Orex Vom Schwarzen Brink mother an Alk vom Osterburg Quell daughter.
The issue is that when I take my pup to training he usually gets out of the vehicle and barks for a bit, but then settles down once he sees who the dogs are, it seems to be the dogs he reacts to more in this situation than people. My trainer says I have a BIG problem due to this initial reaction when we get to class, I disagree.
(trainer is bent out of shape that I didn't go thru him to get the pup! ) We have socialized him extensively in the general public with no problems at all.
Opinions? Sharp/weak/defensive ???

Joy, I will check out your web site regarding temperatments, Thanks.
Nancy

After 15 years of working with GSD pups, my understanding of nerves and drives is still evolving-- so you may not find much consensus on this topic.

First, puppies can be very tricky to read. After 7 weeks of age, many GSD pups go through a number of "fear periods"-- often this is because they are just beginning to "wake up" and notice things in the world around them.

However, many GSD's have a substantial "defense drive" (sometimes called sharpness) that begins to develop during the first year. Often, these pups will perceive a threat from something new, different or strange. Since puppies are not physically equipped yet to confront danger, those with sharpness can appear to be more nervy than those with little defense drive.

Despite the myth of the rock-solid puppy that "never" shows any fear, nearly all GSD pups will show some signs of fear or hesitancy during puppyhood. Often, this will involve raising the hackles / fur on the back of the neck.

In my experience, occasional manifestations of fear are not overly problematic as the pup matures unless:

1--The pup does not recover from a fearful event-- will not approach investigate the source of fear-- even days later

or 2--The pup greets most or all new experiences with hackles up-- and does not mature through this within several weeks time.

Every pup is different-- so observation over time is the only way to really know what you have. There is a wide range of temperment and strength of nerve in GSD's and most other protective breeds.

Very few dogs (including imports, working lines etc.)-- maybe 5% or less have truly solid working character. But working a dog with mediocre nerves can be an excellent learning experience. Be patient, relax and have fun!

Nancy,
I'm inclined to agree w/most of what Dave posted. Tho, I still don't buy this *fear period* business. Pups who act spooky at various times in puppy hood are giving you clues.
As for your pup, what kind of barking does he do when he first arrives at training? Is he just excited? Or announcing his arrival to all potential rivals? Or is it truly anxiety based? (In my book, I actually recommend keeping a log so you can learn to recognize different barks). Frankly, there are many trainers who are far more forgiving than I when it comes to nerve issues. I suspect it's b/c of my work I see an endless parade of nervebags day in and day out.
That being said, imo your pup is showing you how he reacts to stress. Recognize it, be aware of it. Focus on confidence building. If you decide to train him for PPD make sure you have a very good trainer who understands the importance of building confidence and putting a good prey foundation.
And yes, hackels up is a signal of insecurity. I think it was Donn Yarnell who originally used the analogy of a single wolf being confronted by a grizzly bear. The wolf knows he has no chance to win a fight w/the grizzly, so he attempts to bluff.

Nancy,
Also try not to put too much weight in *shying away* as the diagnostic tool for screening out weak nerves. As you will see in the article, we worry about pups/dogs who either shy away or show aggression in non threatening situations. The skitter away pups often grow into their aggression later anyway. People often get confused when a pup shows defensive aggression and don't realize that isn't good either when it's in response to a non threat.

Joy, His barking is more of a an annoucement to his arrivals, IMO. I don't see it as being anxiety based at all, but I could be wrong. He was the alpha male of the litter, if that means anything. He does appear to be quite territorial, at least compared to my female. We were looking for a dog that would be a bit more defensive than the female, as she only barks when its time to do bite work.

Thanks for the input from all.
Nancy