Howdy Will. You wrote, as part of the moderator "tag team"...

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So I'd have to say that VanCamp is correct here, the dogsports where the decoy fire the gun are rare, or least in the minority.

Hmmmm. KNPV, French Ring, Belgian Ring, Mondio Ring, Swedish Programme, ASR, PSA (I'm sure I'm missing some) all have the decoy shoot. That's 7.

Only IPO/Schutzhund has someone other than the decoy shoot...but it's still not the handler, so I'll give it a 0.5.

Score...7 to 0.5.

Conclusion...It's the dogsports where the decoy DOES NOT shoot that are RARE!!!


Can I safely reiterate my, "....hhhhHHHHHUUUUUuuuuuuhhhhHHHH?????? " <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I was going to note that, but I have to stay in my dog house for a while longer. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Gotta keep the social life! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Andres,
I'm not being part of a "tag team", I'm trying to point out a fact and I don't appreciate your sarcasm one bit. If you'd like, just say so and I'll be glad to never make a comment in any thread of yours again, ok? I don't need the snide comments. Just let me know, I'll be glad to butt out and just post in other threads. Have at it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Are you saying that those other sports combined have the total membership of SchH? I'm pretty sure that they don't. And as much as I love ASR and PSA, the combined membership of both organizations isn't over 300 members, just to make an example.
In any numbers game, SchH will dominate, that's just the way it is.

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I'll be glad to butt out and just post in other threads. Have at it.

My honest apology...it wasn't sarcasm and it wasn't snide. It was not my intention to offend you. It was funny to me, and I regret it was not to you. I hope no major damage done.

Regarding the dog sports, in my previous posts I was referring to dogsports, not numbers of people. In this context, it makes no difference if the entire Chinese nation does Schutzhund. That's humorous too...I hope. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

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Robert stated;
It looks to me like you guys are describing pretty similiar dogs .

only because he back pedaled a bit.. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

None of this discussion about dogsports matters, because it isn't "sport training" that is the problem with dogs and gunfire. It's training issues or biological issues that have nothing to do with the sport or discipline the dog is trained for.





Tim, I didn't back peddle at all. You seem to be talking about the dog's temperament. I don't want a dull dog that shows avoidance to anything either. That's a temperament flaw. What I'm talking about is training a good aggressive dog to ignore gunshots. It would be pretty easy to condition a dog, or allow a dog to become conditioned, to load up when they hear gunshots, but that is SOOOOO counterproductive for all kinds of other training issues.

Getting a dog to ignore gunfire is the best training strategy because it will carry over to any other type of work.

If there is a decoy with a gun, the dog should be focused on eating the decoy. . .not even thinking about the gun.

If the handler is shooting over the dog, the dog shouldn't even be looking to the gun or paying attention, it should be alert to it's surroundings and focused on the handler for commands or movement.

If there is gunfire going on around where you are doing obedience, or even where the dog is just sitting and chilling out with you, they should ignore it.


Those are my training goals with regards to firearms and dogs.

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If there is a decoy with a gun, the dog should be focused on eating the decoy. . .not even thinking about the gun.

If the handler is shooting over the dog, the dog shouldn't even be looking to the gun or paying attention, it should be alert to it's surroundings and focused on the handler for commands or movement.

agreed. 100%...

i will also agree on dull/avoidance being a temprament issue. i worked with a dog like this. the proto-typical "bag of nerves". during gunfire, the dog wouldn't cower or immediately run to the handler, but would jump, then turn it's head away from the gunfire and act as if any subsequent shots were not happening. kind of hard to describe in words, but i would definately not view that as ideal and yes, this was because of the dog's temprament.

only took us a few posts to reach agreement. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Adres' stated;

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Dog and handler walk into a rural home in El Salvador. There are a bunch of rooms, outhouses, chickens, 55 gal drums, garbage, and easy access to the roof all over the place...to search out a bad guy. Everyone has already been cleared out after the perimieter was set, yet one person is still there. The dog goes in there, finds the guy, the guy surrenders, so there's no bite, the guy is taken into custody by someone else, and the dog gets his prey item for having done everything correctly.

As the dog/handler team walk out of this "home", the handler gets attacked by someone with a knife that "appeared" from one of the previously cleared rooms...while the dog still carries the prey item.

Andres ,
I don't know of any K9 handler that would reward a dog like that in this situation . I'm sure there are some that might train like that but it's just poor training and not a prey item problem .

In this type of training scenerio most of the agencies I know of in this country go into this scenerio believing there could always be another potential threat . So even if we located the 1st party we were looking for and may even have intel stating he or she was the only one there , the scene is not secure until everything is cleared by the dog and officers and the scenerio has been determined (by the one running it) to be completed so we can debrief(critique)it. This is a reality based scenerio where safe tactics while using the dog are the focus . It is not a scenerio where you would usually be stopping to give the a reward or correction to the dog in mid search . Now you actually could work corrections or rewards into this situation but to do this you would be stopping the scenerio temporarily to do this . But by your discription this is not one of those training scenerios . So the name of the game in your scenerio is officer safety tactics along with the dog searching

What you have described is a poorly planned training scenerio with poor training and tactics .

Once again prey items aren't given all the time . They are used variably along with other forms of reward and it depends on what you are trying to accomplish in training .

If a dog is more concerned with the prey item that's in it's handler's pocket then the badguy it is supposed to be searching for then somewhere along the line there was a screw up in it's training or the dog doesn't have what it takes to do the job .

Most K9 Trainers I know in this country , PSD and sport , have found that the more training you can accomplish through motivation the better and prey items have been found to add motivation more so then just verbal praise or playing.

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My strong suggestion is to not take a prey item into a building search ever...

in a real scenario i would agree with this. training is a different story. as jim has said, you vary it. mainly because that's real life. most of the time in the real world the dog isn't going to get a find. they have to accept that and stay motivated. part of staying motivated is getting that prey reward every so often in training.

Jim, I don't want to belabor the issue, but it's in longish conversations like this that I get to learn stuff, so thanks for your contribution.

You wrote,

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When doing real world or tactical obediance I often (not always) end that training with a prey item . Once again though , I mix it up and vary the type of rewards and vary it based on the individual dog .

When do you give the prey item.? What other rewards and when?

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The potential bite or confrontation and driving off of the badguy should be(IMO) and are the primary incentive with the dogs we train . But , if the real world scenerio ends without the dog getting that reward (bite , drive off) then a prey item can many times be a good second option .

When do you give the prey item?

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Plus my wife and kids would kill me if I spent anymore of my own time with the dog .

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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What you have described is a poorly planned training scenerio with poor training and tactics .

Yes it is. It just helps me illustrate the point that if you give a prey item to reward an action, within the appropriate time frame for the dog to consider the reward FOR THAT ACTION, you can get in trouble, second, that if a dog has a prey item in his mouth, and you need that dog to respond to a handler threat, the dogs first reaction will be to chomp down on the prey item, and third, that if the prey item is given outside of a very short time frame...it no longer rewards anything...and is just stress relief.