Well I added 0.4lbs of ground beef to 1 cup of honest kitchen food, 1/2 cup of beef broth and 1/2 cup of water, he ate most of his food <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> But I didn't give him dinner last night or this morning, all he's had since yesterday morning is 2 hotdogs during training. If he keeps that up twice a day then I'll be happy, I called him over to his bowl for a "last chance" to finish his food before I took it away, he ate 1/2 of what was left, then couldn't bring himself to eat more, so I guess the green mush and beef is more filling than it looks <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

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there is nothing wrong with feeding necks and wings to a giant breed. i do it every day. even when they are gulped, everything comes out just fine! people worry too much about this.

The average "I quit feeding raw because..." I hear comes from problems with Barf--impaction or choking on wings/necks/backs usually. Dogs aren't meant to chew their food, and some misjudge the size of the wing/neck/back.

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chicken legs are actually more dangerous because they are weight-bearing bones and if the chicken is over 6 weeks old these bones are hard and can splinter and cause problems. i'd be much more cautious about feeding legs than necks, wings, and/or backs.

Um...noooo. Chicken leg quarters are not included in the "weight bearing bone" catagory that beef legs are in, and they're plenty soft. Cooked bones splinter--even raw beef legs don't splinter, they just are too dense and break teeth.

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chicken is about as close to a complete food as you will find for a dog.

Chicken is poultry. Dogs are descended from wolves, who evolved to eat large ungulates--deer, elk, caribou--all who are made up of *red meat*. Not bird. Can they eat it? Yeah. Of course. Do they need to? Nah. I know of some dogs that can't stand the sight of chicken. It's like fish--if the dog eats it, great. More variety. If he doesn't, it's not the end of the world.

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dogs need roughage to regulate their colon.

Humans are more omnivorous than canines, and even we don't *need* veggies to stay healthy-- Adventures in Diet. It's all fascinating, but check out the last page where it talks about the study done.

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if you just feed RMBs and don't feed veggies, you can find yourself at the emergency room with a dog with an impacted colon.

Yes, if you're feeding by Billinghurst's guidelines of 50% bone you will definitely get an impacted colon. There isn't an animal out there that's made up of 50% bone--all but a few are between 10% and 15%, and the highest listed is 20% (that's a mouse, if you're interested). It's my opinion that Billinghurst realized that he had too much bone and it caused impaction, so instead of reducing the amount of bone, added/upped the veggies to solve the problem and "keep things moving". Either that or veggies caused diahrea and the high amount of bone stopped it.

You're definitely right about only feeding RMBs--you need to include organ meat! But just liver doesn't cut it--all organs are part of the critter, so try and find as many as you can. Most people can find kidney and heart (more muscle meat than organ meat, but does double duty) at least. Variety is the spice of life and all.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Cheers y'all.

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.....Yes, if you're feeding by Billinghurst's guidelines of 50% bone you will definitely get an impacted colon. There isn't an animal out there that's made up of 50% bone--all but a few are between 10% and 15%, and the highest listed is 20% (that's a mouse, if you're interested).

I wonder how much muscle meat and the tastiest organs the pack leader would eat compared to what he left of the kill for the rest of the pack. I.e., I wonder what the bone-meat ratio was for the bottom of the pack as opposed to the pack leader.

I read a chapter in an early prey-model book about that. This was many years ago, but I do remember that the conclusion was that at least half the pack would have eaten a far greater proportion of bone than what the kill would have had, intact.

Interesting........

A solitary hunter could be assumed to eat the ratio represented in the kill when it was alive; a pack is a different matter. At least, that was the argument. It was an interesting discussion.

Sabrina - I think we all appreciate the information you so obviously researched, but is it necessarily the be all/end all of raw feeding mechanics? I think the variety this diet provides, both to the feeder and the dog, is the key to satisfying everyone's choice. I happen to feed my boys 60% of their diet with chicken (backs, necks, wings) as the RMBs, 35% of beef, fish, ground turkey, etc., as muscle meat, and 5%, beef liver or chicken liver, as organ meat. I choose not to feed vegetables, but they are certainly acceptable. My boys are extremely healthy even though I don't follow your formula. I think that's the beauty of the diet - many, many choices, which all lead to optimum health - our ultimate goal.

I also do not feed veggies, I do add a scoop of kelp though. I feed about 60-40 chicken leg quarters and beef heart. I add a bit of beef liver occasionally because it is so rich sometimes the stool gets a little runny. Does anybody know what some symptons would be of an impacted colon? I have been feeding raw for over 6 months now and haven't had any problems, just wondering what to look for if something was wrong.

Andrew

andrew, a couple of suggestions. it sounds like you are off to a good start, however, consider adding more variety to your dog's diet. beef heart is excellent, and so is chicken, but you can also add in fish, pork, lamb, and beef ribs to mix things up a bit.

if there are hunters near you, try visiting a meat processor during hunting season where you can get heads, necks, and ribs, and also fresh scrap meat if you visit at the end of the work day. freeze these for ten days at 0F to kill parasites. this is a free source of excellent meaty bones and meat.

if you aren't going to feed veggies, then feeding liver does work. what you have to watch for with an impacted colon is the dog straining to defecate, and/or very hard stools. chicken can cause this, but so can too many pork necks. not all dogs have to have veggies. mine seem to crave it, so go by what works for you and your dogs.

you do have to watch to make sure you have a balanced diet over time, so try adding in some other meats and cuts as your find them. canned fish, frozen fish, and marked down hamburger are all favorites with my dog.

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Sabrina - I think we all appreciate the information you so obviously researched, but is it necessarily the be all/end all of raw feeding mechanics?

Is this a trick question? *lol* No, of course not. And I don't exactly mean to sound like that. If your dog is happy and healthy, go for it. But the only other posts on raw feeding I've seen pretty much insinuate that veggies are necessary, necks and wings are wonderful, etc, so I'm tossing out the other side for the newbies.

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think the variety this diet provides, both to the feeder and the dog, is the key to satisfying everyone's choice.

Absolutely.

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I happen to feed my boys 60% of their diet with chicken (backs, necks, wings) as the RMBs, 35% of beef, fish, ground turkey, etc., as muscle meat, and 5%, beef liver or chicken liver, as organ meat.

But if you look at your overall percentages, you're feeding, in total, close to the percentages I mentioned once you combine the boneless meat with the bony stuff.

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I choose not to feed vegetables, but they are certainly acceptable.

Sure, unless pupsters allergic or something. My guys love veggies for treats, especially leftover ones, with garlic and lemon juice on them ^_^

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My boys are extremely healthy even though I don't follow your formula.

That's great, and I'm sure they love their food. Just going to clarify a little--when I said 15% bone, I meant bone total, not RMB. Kinda like if you took all the meat off the bone and weighed it? Just an FYI, because you sounded like you didn't quite get that part.

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I think that's the beauty of the diet - many, many choices, which all lead to optimum health - our ultimate goal.

Abso-posi-lutely. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Guys, let me just say--please don't think I'm arguing for the sake of arguing. Or even that I'm really arguing, not in the sense that it's an argument (had anyone thought that...hopefully y'all didn't). I'm used to debates. I like to debate--friendly debates are fun. It's not my intention to try to get people over to my side, or whatever. You feed your dog, he's happy, he's healthy, that's great. Keep it up. But I do like to toss stuff out for newbies--there aren't a whole lot of raw feeding sites out there that I've found that don't revolve around Barf, or Pitcairn, or Schultze, so it's kind of hard to find anything other than that. So I offer a different viewpoint, since I have it and it's valid. It's been fun.

Cheers.

I think I understand where you are coming from - no offense meant and none taken. However, my own feeling, having been a "newbie" (and who hasn't), is that newbies are looking for some solid structure to a diet with some clear-cut information. Debates about green beans vs. red beets are fine, but when it involves important factors such as different categories of food and their ratios, I don't think we can be quite as blase'. In my opinion, we're all here to help each other. I'll be glad to debate with you in PMs!

Hey I know I am stepping on this late but I got a ton of info from http://www.rawdogranch.com/index.html. This helped me allot with learning the new process

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I choose not to feed vegetables, but they are certainly acceptable.

....Sure, unless pupsters allergic or something.

If we are presenting different points of view for "newbies," I want to just toss in here that canine food allergies, IMO and from all that I have read and experienced, are almost always to a protein food; sometimes the allergen is a chemical preservative, etc., but in general, the first place to look is not at greens, but at protein-grains, soy, or even a long-fed meat source.

Wheat, corn, soy, barley (more and more), and even beef or chicken -- these are the ingredients to look at first when a food allergy is suspected. I imagine it's possible for greens to be an allergen, but I've had a lot of dog-allergy experience and done a lot of dog-allergy research, and that's not where I'd cast my suspicious eye.

This is just my opinion, and I'm not a health professional. My opinion is that a "newbie," researching canine nutrition, probably does not want to leave out greens just from a fear of allergies.

Again, of course, almost anything *can* be an individual dog's allergen.