Quote: elaine matthys

.... Connie, dogs can be and frequently are allergic to salmon oil. Most people take their dogs off of everything including the supplements on an elimination diet and, if possible, off the antihistamines too. If you don't, there is no way to tell how your dog is reacting to what you are trying. If you choose to continue the salmon oil, you certainly can, but know your dog can be having a problem with it and you might never get a good response to the diet. Dogs can be without it for awhile without a problem and if you really like salmon oil, let that be the first ingredient you add back into your diet after the 8 weeks. The whole point of this diet is to find out what the dog is reacting to so he doesn't need antihistamines or steroids.

Good points, Elaine.

It's not so much "really liking salmon oil" as it is seeing what Omega 3 EFAs from marine sources do for reducing inflammation, which is a huge part of atopic dermatitis.

I've never had a dog who was allergic to it, but of course that doesn't mean a thing. Dogs are individuals.

So you're correct about eliminating EVERYthing the dog has every eaten. (You definitely "get it" about elimination diets. )

I personally except salmon oil because food allergies, while sometimes present along with environmental/inhalant allergies, are far less likely to be the problem (#1: fleas; #2: environmental; #3: food, far behind), and because I want to use everything that works against the atopic dermatitis.

I thought about what you are saying, and it's an excellent point. For me, that's a tough call. I'm glad you opened that line of thought.

Again, I would ask the vet.

I have no objection to asking the vet about the oil, but I have yet to find a vet that has any clue about food allergies and/or elimination diet.

Most vets are still in denial about the extent of food allergies because all they ever recommend to people are different so called hypoallergenic diets and when the dogs don't improve, that just reinforces their belief that food allergies don't exist. The problem is that these kibbles have to be complete diets and have a lot of the same ingredients as are in all other kibbles and as dogs can be allergic to any or all of the ingredients in kibble, they are still allergic to the new kibbles.

Usually, by the time people are desperate enough to try an elimination diet, they have tried everything without success, and their dogs are probably allergic to a ton of things. The best way to deal with this is to assume your dog is allergic to EVERYTHING, start over with something they have never had, and then very slowly add new things to see how they react.

Good points.

Sometimes I forget that not everyone is using a fresh raw elimination diet.

A dog with a ton of allergies -- yep, been there. I had a dog whose skin test results were 33 "severe" allergies. They were almost all environmental/inhalant, but yes, there were some food ingredients in there.

Oh, boy, you reminded me of the commercial hypoallergenic stuff. Denatured corn protein, usually.

There are actually still vets around who think lamb is novel enough to be an elimination diet basis.

That's about two or three decades behind, since so many kibbles contain lamb. And fish -- dogs who have lived with cats, you can pretty much accept that they have eaten fish.

The last elimination diet I did, I used ostrich (frozen, from SoCal). There's also venison and buffalo, depending on what the individual dog has ever eaten. (And it amazes me when someone will say "such and such food worked for MY dog's allergy, so try that!" as if one dog's allergens were somehow related to those of another dog.)

Good points, Elaine.

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

The last elimination diet I did, I used ostrich (frozen, from SoCal). There's also venison and buffalo...

Could there be another way to go about an elimination diet? I can't even find ostrich or venison here, and the price of buffalo will stop your heart. My dog is on an all-raw diet, so the number of ingredients he's come across are limited. I understand that the quickest way to test for allergies is to only give him something he's never had before, but would I get the same result if I simply cut back to one ingredient (e.g. chicken) for 8 weeks? If there's no change, then switch entirely to, say, beef for 8 weeks. If one of those is the offender, then shouldn't I see a difference? Or if none, try a third meat (e.g. turkey), and so on, only working up to filet de bison if needed, or if I win the lottery . Or what if I experiment with eliminating certain things such as egg yolks and salmon oil, one at a time?

 Quote: AnitaGard

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

The last elimination diet I did, I used ostrich (frozen, from SoCal). There's also venison and buffalo...

Could there be another way to go about an elimination diet? I can't even find ostrich or venison here, and the price of buffalo will stop your heart. My dog is on an all-raw diet, so the number of ingredients he's come across are limited. I understand that the quickest way to test for allergies is to only give him something he's never had before, but would I get the same result if I simply cut back to one ingredient (e.g. chicken) for 8 weeks? If there's no change, then switch entirely to, say, beef for 8 weeks. If one of those is the offender, then shouldn't I see a difference? Or if none, try a third meat (e.g. turkey), and so on, only working up to filet de bison if needed, or if I win the lottery . Or what if I experiment with eliminating certain things such as egg yolks and salmon oil, one at a time?

Well, you know that most food allergies are proteins, right? So I would start with proteins before I'd worry about salmon oil, non-protein produce like greens, etc. (I'd consider egg whites to be more likely, for example.)

Also, you know that food allergies are much less likely than flea and inhalant/environmental allergies, right?

That said, though, it's always worth it to try an elimination diet (IMO) because it's simple, and because a lot of dogs have both environmental and food allergies, and because food allergens are easy to eliminate.

I've never done what you're considering, and it would (obviously) take a lot longer, as you eliminated ingredient by ingredient, but I don't see why it couldn't be done.

You have a complete eating history, right (you've had the dog since puppyhood)? No commercial foods, right? Has he ever had lamb? Riblets and neck, etc., if he has never eaten lamb, might be a way to go.

You want to remember that treats are often grain-proteins, so you have to read those labels carefully, too. (In fact, treats made from the meat you are currently allowing, baked or dehydrated to make it more portable, are a good alternative.)

Is the dog on fish oil and an RX antihistamine, or is the dermatitis very mild?

Is he on flea preventative?

The vet says it's allergies?

 Quote: AnitaGard

Could there be another way to go about an elimination diet? I can't even find ostrich or venison here, and the price of buffalo will stop your heart. My dog is on an all-raw diet, so the number of ingredients he's come across are limited. I understand that the quickest way to test for allergies is to only give him something he's never had before, but would I get the same result if I simply cut back to one ingredient (e.g. chicken) for 8 weeks? If there's no change, then switch entirely to, say, beef for 8 weeks. If one of those is the offender, then shouldn't I see a difference? Or if none, try a third meat (e.g. turkey), and so on, only working up to filet de bison if needed, or if I win the lottery . Or what if I experiment with eliminating certain things such as egg yolks and salmon oil, one at a time?

Anita, go on http://www.bravorawdiet.com

Gunnar's been on raw for maybe a year and now for the last month or more, I include Bravo in his choices. I was ordering small amounts to try. He loved, I loved it. So I ordered well over a month's worth. We just picked up our first full order yesterday. My fridge is stocked w/everything in wonderful, easy tubes. Venison, buffalo, elk, ostrich, quail, rabbit, salmon, goat.

Some are more expensive then others but it is soooo easy, clean, etc. As an example the rabbit, quail, duck, turkey, chicken, etc. are all w/the bone. The venison and buffalo are not. They have veggies too but I don't order that.

If you go on their website, you may find a dealer close enough to try it. I know they deliver too but of course that depends on how far away they are from you.

Just an idea for you to consider.

Judy

Judy,

Wow! I admit that I assumed there would be a list of ingredients (not elimination diet material), but when I clicked on, for example, ostrich, I saw this ingredient list:

Antibiotic-free ostrich necks, antibiotic-free ostrich meat, antibiotic-free ostrich livers

That's it.

Elk is:

Ground elk with elk bone, elk hearts, elk livers, elk kidneys.

I am VERY impressed at the suitability of these recipes for elimination diets.

(I'm impressed with the opportunity for easy variety for a regular raw diet, too.)

Yep, I know food allergies are less likely than others, and protein is much more likely than fish oil (he gets 4 pumps a day). Not even sure yet whether elimination diet will be necessary - we're at the coming-off-the-short-burst-of-prednisone stage, waiting to see if symptoms reappear. I'm just trying to do some planning and research right now. He's had venison once, lamb maybe 2 or 3 times, Commercial food only at the breeder's and when I first got him, one bag worth, a year ago. I even make my own treats (dried beef liver). I had thought of egg whites being the culprit. I only feed the yolks, but of course there's always residual whites attached. That's certainly the easiest thing to eliminate. I think, though, if I have to go the elimination route, the lamb makes the most sense. It's more affordable than the others and he hasn't had it in a long time - probably well before the itchies started. I did check out the Bravo, (thanks for the link, Judy) but even the cheaper items would cost me $5-$10 a day. My boy is a big eater (but he's very active, so is on the lean side).

My thinking is that if the itchies reappear, but only mildly, once the prednisone wears off, I could try my "poor man's elimination diet". If the itchies come back with a vengence, then I may have to bite the bullet and go with the quicker but more expensive version.

Lamb can be pretty cheap as long as you're not getting the roasts that humans want.

I didn't check out the Bravo prices, which I'd better do.