I believe that a K-9's world could have some gray areas.

However, their training should not. Black and white or correction or reward. This makes it simple and keeps so much conflick from entering into the training process.

Yes, I have a dog that can react to other stimuli.

so lets say your walking in the park and a runner was peeing behind the tree and you didnt see him. Then he returns to running and startls you and you screem and the dog attacks???????? your in real trouble now..... But the dog thought he was protecting you.... doest matter. Your dog should never attack or act aggressive unless you say too....... your dog should never be left to decide for him self.....

 Quote: lance_wright

so lets say your walking in the park and a runner was peeing behind the tree and you didnt see him. Then he returns to running and startls you and you screem and the dog attacks???????? your in real trouble now..... But the dog thought he was protecting you.... doest matter. Your dog should never attack or act aggressive unless you say too....... your dog should never be left to decide for him self.....

I believe in almost all scenarios you are correct. He shouldn't decide. Especially in the PP world.

However, he's really not that kind of dog! He's maddeningly gentle and friendly. Just ask any other poster on here !

I've gotten startled many times while on walk with him. I go many places, mostly alone. He only looks to me to make sure I'm ok. That's all he has ever done. If my dog had "attack mode" in him, I'd never have started this thread.

The one and only time he was went into "get the hell off my property" mode was when that convict came. And that's a real gray area for me. Maybe not you, but for me it is.

The examples of him breaking a stay in the house from me being startled, I'm leaning towards allowing this but at the same time, work much harder at enforcing the stay command under escalating distractions. I really think his command of the stay has to be much better but...

If after perfecting his stay, he still runs to check on me when I'm stroking out over a big hairy spider, I probably won't be correcting him.

well put... Lance

Lance:
Launching an attack is way different than breaking a stay. We must remember body language and tone/inflection speak volumes to dogs. Judy being startled by a jogger would have probably elicited a completely different sound than her being creeped out by a spider web.

Kinda like a soldier shouting "Help, medic" because a crewman was assessed as a casualty during a training event is way different than when someone's really hurt, really bad. Everyone picks up on the sense of urgency.

Also, What about the dog simply closing ranks with available pack members during a perceived threat. Jäger frequently looks to me for guidance, do we fight, flee, stand our ground, or go investigate. In the pack only alphas make those decisions. I suppose a guideline for this would be, does the dog's breaking a stay benefit him, e.g. getting a treat, getting affection, going to sniff that tree, or, does breaking the stay benefit the pack or alpha. If the dog thinks a bag whirling on the wind is evil and closes ranks with the pack leader you take the time to go defeat the bag as a team. Next time it won't be an issue. (I know this because Goober-dog would sound the alarm at trash blowing through the yard until we did battle with a plastic bag. Now it's a non event.)

I still say there are too many individual dog, owner, their collective experience to date, and the environment factors to allow a definitive answer.

Edited by Red Thomas (03/19/2007 11:40 AM)
Edit reason: Typo

 Quote: red thomas

Lance:
Judy being startled by a jogger would have probably elicited a completely different sound than her being creeped out by a spider web.

Kinda like a soldier shouting "Help, medic" because a crewman was assessed as a casualty during a training event is way different than when someone's really hurt, really bad. Everyone picks up on the sense of urgency.

Well Red, it's obvious you don't understand the skincrawling terror I feel when I spot a spider, especially one hanging right in front of me . I shudder at the memory .

Which may actually explain why Gunnar ran to me, now that I think about it . Perhaps he sensed my outright panic.

Putting my somewhat facetious comments about the spider aside, I do completely agree with your last statement that there are way too many contingencies for there to be one right answer. I didn't realize when I started this thread just how complicated a question I was really asking.