Edward & Angelique,

I dont know what the history is, And honestly i dont think i need to know. So please lets keep its professional and if you have a argument that cant help the group then by all means lets hear it. But if its just a argument then please keep it to PM's.

This thread is so far off track it should either be closed or brought back to the original question.

Ed started his finger pointing at the Club I have been part of for the past 7 years with ridiculous accusations, handlers have to take responsibilities for their actions on the field.We have great members and very willing individuals.
Some people have misconceptions on what a "Club " is and expect free obedience classes,have no idea what the sport is all about, expect PPd work done on their dog.Basically no clue what a "Schutzhund club" is and the devotion it takes.Not everyone will see eye to eye and get along but an EFFORT would make a difference.my advise on PPD or Schutzhund is do your homework and know what you really want, and accept the fact that your dog might not be a Schutzhund dog or PPD you had hope for but have fun in your training and take responsibility for your choices.
Ed and I have no history,he does not know me at all , he's just an angry individual...

 Quote: lisa harrison

Will,

What I am saying is if you can't control your dog on leash what makes you think he is going to listen to you off leash, especially around stress and distractions. I feel if you don't have a strong foundation of basic obedience, these are your building blocks that lead up to teaching bitework. IMO if you cant control your dog in basic obedience..sit, down, stay, come you have no business venturing into bitework & protection, without having this very basic training. So maybe I am showing inexperience in this field, but I feel very strongly that a dog should not be taught bitework if he is not first trained in obedience only. It sounds like you guys just go straight into bitework & agitation. Am I off the mark here?

I feel you are incedibly off the mark here. Have you ever trained a PPD, Schutzhund dog, or PSD?

 Quote: Michael Reese

This thread is so far off track it should either be closed or brought back to the original question.

Agreed. Folks, please note.

Lisa,

You are correct in what you want to see as the end result, a dog that is in control and biting in drive. How most, if not all, of us achieve that is by building drive with a puppy while doing motivational OB training until the pup is old enough to transition into some compulsion backing up the motivational training. Expecting a young dog to be 100% reliable off lead prior to bite training is just not realistic as that amount of OB WILL make the dog handler sensitive. The general order of things is to build drive/focus/confidence all the while doing bitework with a helper or experienced handler preparing the dog for the helper and THEN ratcheting up the OB once the bitework is firmly planted in the dogs head. It is hard to build drive and work in drive when the dog is too worried they will get corrected for doing what comes natural to them so they keep turning around. I am not saying that this CANNOT be achieved, but it is REALLY REALLY tough to do and quite frankly unneccesary as you can catch back up on the OB at just over a year of age.

 Quote: lisa harrison

You have to be in control of your dog off leash while the decoy is present, period.

Not in the beginning stages of bite work, you do not. In the beginning drive building stages you want the pup/young dog to drag you onto the field, and work independently in front of you in prey drive chasing, biting, and carrying at first the rag, then the bite pillow, and finally the sleeve. The only real obedience exercise through this is cradling and maybe carrying. Once the dog has learned to bark, chase, and bite in prey drive with a firm calm grip and be cradled and handled with no conflict with the handler do you start to bring in control and then obedience into the routine. This dovelopment is not meant to bring out aggression or defense (maybe very small amounts of defense by changing barking due to posture and positioning of the helper)but to develop prey drive. During this time your dog is NEVER off leash on the field and normally is dragging a long line during OB sessions.

Lisa, I'm new to protection training a dog, but the way I understand the chronology of this type of training is how John explained, from having read numerous posts from respected forum members who have trained their dogs in this type of work for many years. From what I can tell, they seem to agree.

I don't think Angelique meant that you have to have perfect obedience on and off leash BEFORE you start protection/Schutzhund bitework, but rather that if you are going to have a dog that is trained in protection that dog needs to be reliable in obedience as part of the responsibility of owning such a dog (correct me if I'm wrong in interpreting your words Angelique).

Edited to add: I was typing as Angelique was posting.

John , I meant that as the end result. ..I do not do a whole lot of off leash ob if any on my young male, only my titled male, while doing our bite work but on leash only and it's coming together..
Obedience can be done at an early age ( your basics) away from the sack work etc.. it will not affect "drives" during the bite work foundation unless again the handler is heavy handed..yes that can cause conflict in all kinds of phases..
Let me finish by saying that I was simply saying that by the time your dog enters the field for Schutzhund titles, your dog has to do the routine off leash.I was pointing out that the end result is doing your bite work off leash and have full control.But I do agree with you John and what you are describing is the bite foundation.Exactly how we've done it for years here.I was talking about the fact that you can do your basic obedience while your dog is a pup ( away from bite work foundation) and still have success in your bite foundation.I took an obedience/social class when my young male was 16 weeks and then would show up at Schtuzhund training and sack my dog ect... he was not affected by the ob class,if the drives are there and you have a positive and motivational OB , it should not affect the drives. Again I do not mix my OB training with my bite work when my dogs are young pups..

Yes Sandra that is what I meant ! I know you & I have been on this type of thread many times, it's nice to know we're on the same page