 Re: Out as a pack issue?
[Re: Jennifer Coulter ]
#171447 - 12/28/2007 08:43 PM |
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You could say that they haven't been trained to out for strangers or you could say that they do not respect them as the authoritative pack leader. Pack leaders ARE trainers in the wild and otherwise. They reinforce and correct behaviors all the time.
Is this just all a semantics argument or am I missing something?
No, I think you're right. Thought it did seem to me like Ben was implying that he thought enforcing "pack rules" was the same thing as alpha rolling for faulty obedience, and I wanted to clear that up, just in case!
That's a fairly common perception with some pet owners and it can lead to some really messed up situations, not to mention bad PR for the pack model mentality. Just like the raw diet--excellent and healthy when you do it right, horrible if you do it wrong! 
Carbon |
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Re: Out as a pack issue?
[Re: Jennifer Coulter ]
#171448 - 12/28/2007 08:49 PM |
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I train my dogs completely motivational nowdays. My older GSD has zero out problems. That means on a sleeve or a nice jucy bone he may be chewing on.
There are a couple of people at club that he'll out a sleeve for. That's because he views that as a game. Not someone trying to control him. Pressure on him from the helper and it dern well better be me giving the out command.
If ANYONE besides my wife or myself tried to out him off of that jucy bone, and he decide's to chew on them, is that a training issue or a lack of pack structure/leadership?!
Training is about leadership! Not about over powering the dog.
old dogs LOVE to learn new tricks |
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Re: Out as a pack issue?
[Re: Benjamin Colbert ]
#171450 - 12/28/2007 08:56 PM |
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I don't own any wolves but i have a pack of dogs. I 100% "buy" into pack theory. My dogs are all loose together and no fights, and believe me, it's not due to luck. There's a lot more to it than a heavy hand. No studies needed! Out means out
Edited by Al Curbow (12/28/2007 09:01 PM)
Edit reason: added thought
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Re: Out as a pack issue?
[Re: Bob Scott ]
#171452 - 12/28/2007 09:07 PM |
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Oh, so now we're talking about a family, instead of a pack Benjiman? Okay, Family. Better?
And from what this pea brain of mine can remember of wolf studies, individual dogs do not leave of their own accord but rarely. Usually they are driven out by the 'pack' because of noncompliance of the family structure. Very harsh indeed.
Our modern dogs while maybe far removed from the wild wolf, are of the same species, contary to your assertion earlier.
Prozac please.
Randy
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Re: Out as a pack issue?
[Re: Bob Scott ]
#171453 - 12/28/2007 09:08 PM |
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If ANYONE besides my wife or myself tried to out him off of that jucy bone, and he decide's to chew on them, is that a training issue or a lack of pack structure/leadership?!
Training is about leadership! Not about over powering the dog.
What is YOUR answer to your question Bob?
I also consider myself a postiive trainer and trained the out by purely positive means.
Your "training is about leadership" quote is similar to my thinking that "pack leaders ARE trainers".
I still think this is mostly a semantics argument and can't beleive I was sucked in  
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Re: Out as a pack issue?
[Re: Yuko Blum ]
#171454 - 12/28/2007 09:09 PM |
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Kori: I'd recommend going over Ed's articles again. STUDY them, and understand their meaning, don't just skim through them. Sounds like you still have a lot to learn about pack drives if you're asking questions like "which came first etc.".
No offense intended to anyone, but come on. Even a complete beginner to dogs can see just how obvious a dog's pack drive is.
I can see where one could question which drive is causing the dog to behave the way it does in certain training circumstances, but to discount the HUGE impact of pack drive on a dog's behaviour is complete foolishness.
Wow, Yuko-you sure have a way of not offending anyone. How many non-offensive phrases were in that helpful post? "...you still have a lot to learn...", "come on, Even a complete beginner...", oh, and let's not forget the "complete foolishness." Dang. It's a good thing you weren't being offensive.
If said something incorrect, it is because I am in the "learning phase" OK? As a matter of fact, I DO have a lot to learn about pack drives. So what? That's what I'm here for. Not all of us are experts like you, and maybe I should have kept quiet on the subject, but that's no reason to jump down my throat. I think I managed to say something a little bit intelligent in my first post on this thread:
Hmmmm...I admit I have not seen this video, but could he mean that the dog refuses to out b/c he does not respect the handler? (Assuming of course, that the dog understands the command). Kind of a "I'm not outing b/c I'm my own boss" kind of attitude?
How about a little less criticism in your "constructive criticism?"
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Re: Out as a pack issue?
[Re: Kori Bigge ]
#171457 - 12/28/2007 09:22 PM |
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I'm sorry Kori, I didn't mean to take my irritation out on you.
It was supposed to be directed at Ben. I don't retract my statement that only someone who's pretty much never interacted with a dog would try to refute the existence of pack drive or deny the huge influence of this drive on a dog's behaviour.
I just figured Ben would know better. I can see his point on the "out" issue, but as for the rest... well it's interesting to me that he would decide to come on this forum to say all that when trainers with 1000 times his experience (such as Ed) have all explained the undeniable importance of this drive.
You're right, I should've shut up and gotten my thoughts straight before making a hasty reply. I'm really sorry to have offended you, I would delete my post if I could.
I'm not an expert, which is why I would never presume to start spouting off my own weird views on dog behaviour and training when they go against everything that top trainers and breeders have figured out after a lifetime of experience.
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Re: Out as a pack issue?
[Re: Yuko Blum ]
#171458 - 12/28/2007 09:29 PM |
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If you can see Bens' point Yuko, can you explain it to me? It seems to be a moving target for him.
Randy
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Re: Out as a pack issue?
[Re: randy allen ]
#171461 - 12/28/2007 09:38 PM |
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Yuko-
Don't sweat it.  Most people would never have apologized, so I appreciate (and accept) your apology. I'm sure you know more about dogs than I do (as do most of the people on this board), but sometimes saying something dumb (like I do sometimes) is the best way to find something out. People like me just don't like having it pointed out that they've said something dumb. Ha ha! You can pass that little gem of wisdom on if you like. Hee hee!
Peace in the New Year!!! 
Kori
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Re: Out as a pack issue?
[Re: Kori Bigge ]
#171462 - 12/28/2007 09:42 PM |
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Thanks for being so gracious Kori - I'm taking this to PMs now so as not to detract from the thread (check your PMs)
New Year's resolution - learn to behave on public forums, LOL
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