I saw it too and thought what perfect timing Ed has - all great trainers must have perfect timing both with 2 and 4 legged animals!

So, As a beginner in the dog training world I have to admit I'm a little confused. Rick, if you want your dog to obey, even when there are distractions, and absent of treats, how do you accomplish that?

Motivational training done properly will put the dog into drive when the command is issued. Part of this is the temperament of the dog, but it is a conditioning thing. The dog believes a reward is coming, so when the dog hears the command, he will go into drive in anticipation of the reward. If the reward has been weaned properly, then the dog will not need a reward each time he performs the command, it would be intermittent. So maybe he gets a ball tomorrow, or in 5 minutes, or next weekend. The key to all training is maintaining the training. A dog is never "fully trained", the dog needs to continue maintaining his skill.

This goes for both compulsion and motivational training, but I believe a compulsion trained dog needs more maintanence than a motivationally trained dog. The compulsion trained dog figures out eventually that you cannot correct him 100% of the time, so he will keep worsening until you "set him straigt" in your next formal training session. With motivational training, it is not a case of "well I can get away with not doing it", but it becomes a case of "if I dont do it, I dont get what I want". The battle with a motivationally trained dog is that if the dog finds something on his own that he is more motivated by than what you are offering, and learns he can get what he wants (for example, seeing a rabbit, and deciding to chase the bunny instead of wait for you to give him a piece of cheese), then that will be your challenge to overcome. This is where most people will opt to use corrections to proof the motivational training. However, because the foundation is still set motivationally, I think that the corrections will have alot more meaning when the dog sees a clear black & white of cookie vs. correction. It becomes a clear cut choice, the dog will always opt for the option that is most beneficial to him.

When it comes to sport, the goal is to escape with every single point you can possibly get. So, when "cheating" by motivating the dog before stepping onto the field, it doesn't mean that the dog will perform slowly or unhappily without this, it simply means that maybe stepping into that slightly higher level of drive will give that little bit of extra speed and precision. It brings the dog HIGHER into drive.

Take Lyka for example. Her obedience with a ball is fine, but if you want to see an alert and attentive dog, stick a decoy on the field and have him walk around while I'm doing OB. She goes higher into drive for a bite on a decoy than she does for a ball or a tug with me. Thats not to say she has low drive for a tug with me, but her enthusiasm skyrockets for the decoy. So now that she is higher in drive, suddenly her OB looks even nicer, her tail is even higher, and she's totally doing everything she can as perfectly as she can hoping I'll send her to bite.

If all her obedience is practiced with this level of drive then her OB when the decoy goes away will be phenomenal, unfortunately putting too much control on a dogs bitework by doing all the OB with a decoy present can also have its negative effects in bitework, so there is a balance. Most people screw this up.

I'm wondering if I can copy some of the great info over to the other forum for people there to get a better insight on the difference with treat vs non-treat training. Especially your last post, Mike.

 Quote: patty macleod

I'm wondering if I can copy some of the great info over to the other forum for people there to get a better insight on the difference with treat vs non-treat training. Especially your last post, Mike.

You can post a link.

That's what we do here to provide info from another web page.

For example, you could post this:

http://www.leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=178504#Post178504


I have sometimes pasted part of a post somewhere else, but *always" with a link to the actual post (which allows it to be read in full and in context, and properly credited).

ya i cant see teaching lucky without treats. I sometimes try to have her do some commands without the treat once in awhile and she does them but most times it is for treats. this guy sounds kinda harsh. I wouldn't want him training my puppy.. connie ramirez

You all have good points, but I will have to agree to disagree for those of you on the 'no treat' thing. I prefer treats. And while the paycheck analogy may not work well for you, you do have to admit that Vegas was built on a variable reward system! You can accuse me of 'humanizing' it if you want, but that is the philosophy that works well for us.
My point is, treats and marker training are an excellent way to introduce a job to a dog. I agree, that most of what I have seen in dog training that does NOT use food or markers is compulsory and often 'crank and yank.' Once the dog sees how much FUN the job it, the dog no longer requires treats or markers because the job is self-rewarding. Make sense? For those of you who have found non- compulsory methods to introduce new jobs to your dogs without treats that's fantastic! That has just not been what I have seen

Mike said;
"Motivational training done properly will put the dog into drive when the command is issued."

Look at this as Pavlov's bell. The dog hears the bell and responds with the saliva. It doesn't have to see the food. The bell tells it the food is comming.
Same thing in competing on the field with the dog. You've imprinted it with the "knowledge" that it WILL get rewarded. The "trick" is to chain behaviours together till it does a whole program before the reward comes. Not a big deal IF the dog is performing because it knows the "reward" is commming instead of performing for the treat that is being used as a bribe.
Same with compulsion training. The dog "believes" that it will be corrected if it refuses the command.
How both methods are used will determine if the dog will perform correctly.
BTW, I have no problem showing my dog his tug right before I go in the field/ring, then have someone walk behind me an take it. He's learned that he WILL get it when we walk off. There are all kinds of "warmup" exercises going on outside the field/ring as long as no corrections are used. Unfortunately, that all goes on behind the buildings.

Thanks Mike. That was a great summary of the two points that are being made on this thread. It cleared up a lot of things for me. That's what we new beginners need.

I love conversations like this!