Jennifer wrote in part:

A pup that is more shy will need exposure to learn people are positive.

I agree Jennifer but what about dogs at the other end of the behavior spectrum. Ones that are naturally dominate or there breed is naturally suspicious. Don't you think they, when young could benefit from *some* direct contact with people. If you believe petting could benefit shy dogs at one end of the behavior spectrum why not the above described dogs at the other end. Norman

Norman, my AB was quite dominant. He was not extreme but more than a lot of normal dog people would have been able to handle. Every single new person was potentially something to dominante.

As a pup I took him to many places to see and be around people but he was never touched by anyone he didn't know until he was around 6 months of age. I took him to SummerFest in Milwaukee and The Midwest Horse Fair, he was in very large noisy crowds and had no issues. He could be petted if I gave permission to someone as he was under control but I didn't allow other people to handle him.

He ignored people because that's what I had conditioned and taught him to do. People are no big deal, so when we were around people he looked to me.

I don't believe socialization will change whether or not a truly dominant dog will be dominant as an adult. Unless you have every person who pets him correct him for his dominant behavior, which I do not at all condone.

For naturally suspicious breeds, it depends on the pup. "Suspicious" to me means shy, and we go back to my original post that for shy dogs I think it is beneficial for them to be shown that people are positive, and no big deal. But this also depends on what the purpose for the pup is. If it is going to be a PPD or the ownwers don't want it to be social, then exposure without contact.

My goal is to have a dog that is neutral, indifferent to people. I don't want to build up a puppy to think that strangers offer affection and treats only to have to retrain and condition him later in life that in public he must always look to me and listen and forget about all those nice wonerful strangers --- *if the pup doesn't need it.* IMO it can make the introduction of distractions a bit more difficult (though nothing I cannot or will not work through) to have a pup or dog that looks to and for strangers as sources of affection or treats.

Jennife wrote in part:

"As a pup I took him to many places to see and be around people but he was never touched by anyone he didn't know until he was around 6 months of age".

I see nothing wrong with the way you are approching this. All of this began when a poster suggested for a pup no touching at all which I found counter productive to rasing a well balanced dog, and said so.

I take the middle road on this issue. I agree with a lot that Norman has posted because I feel as he does that a puppy's (or dog's) bond with you will not suffer because you let someone pet him sometimes, especially a GSD, who generally grows up to be rather aloof anyway, no matter what the previous touch policy was. The older they get, the more indifferent they become. Other breeds may not be as aloof, but a dog isn't easily fooled as to who his owner is. Loyalty is part of what a dog is. So I wouldn't stress over it too much.

By middle road, I mean that sometimes I would and do let people pet Lear as a pup and as an adult, sometimes not. Depended on the person (extended family, friends), my mood at the time, Lear's mood at the time, the situation, whether or not it was a complete stranger (no pets from strange adults). But I did let children pet him, any child who wanted to. I felt that was important. Lear was extremely excitable and with his sharp puppy nails I didn't want kids scratched all over so if they were wearing shorts, I'd say no. If long pants, I'd say ok. I was rather casual about it, in other words. Like I said, it depended on various factors.

A couple of times I let kids give him a treat, but then changed my mind about that. Not a good habit for a dog to get into, taking food from other people.

Lear is being trained as a PPD and I've seen no ill effects from letting certain chosen people pet him. Most important in my mind is that "I" release him go to someone to be petted and not let him initiate the overture.

 Quote: norman epstein

Cameron wrote in part:

If the pup can play with every yahoo they meet there is no motivation for them to focus on me if they know that other people can provide the same "service".

No one said that the pup was supposed to play with every yahoo available. Moreover I don't see how someone petting your pup a few minutes a day will cause that pup to look elsewhere for attention when you are giving it to him for 99% of his day. Nor did I say that you shouldn't control the situation. For the record, this all started because someone said that Ed recommend that no one should touch your pup and I disagreed and it seems you do also. So lets all try to keep this in the same frame of reference.

I thought I was keeping it in the frame of reference... I was answering your question. As mentioned by another poster, most people are not ABLE to control themselves around a cute puppy. It also very quickly turns into a bunch of people. This is regard to strangers. I just don't trust someone I know to act the way that I want my pup to be handled, and I would rather avoid the situation altogether rather than have it turn into a bad experience. I also want my pup to learn to be calm around people. If the pup learns that it is a social free-for-all when meeting people, that is not good, and not what I want. I think, ultimately that we are more or less saying the same things here just in different ways.

I agree Cameron. I'm not worried about the reaction of the dog as much as I am dismayed by the actions of the people.

I don't let people pet my puppy at all though I consider her very well socialized. I take her everywhere with me and expose her to many different people. Unfortunately many people don't respect the boundaries that I've set up for training. For instance, when my Dane was alive I can't even count the number of people who would try to put their child on her back. My Dane was very friendly and loved people, and I would usually allow people to pet her (this was way back when). But people would begin ruffling her ears, getting too close to her face...once a guy even tried putting his hand in her mouth! After a time I found it was just easier to say, "Please don't pet her; we're training." I've done it with every dog I've owned since.

I don't consider my dog bad with people (though she is standoffish by nature of her breed). We can walk through a crowd of people easily without her reacting. I just don't want people to touch her in a way I deem inappropriate.