My Rott puts on a great show. As long as the bad guy doesnt have a padded stick, I feel pretty safe.

Sometimes a great show is more than enough

Yeah, but it always falls apart at some point.

 Quote: joy van veen

 Quote: will rambeau

 Quote: joy van veen

I have known of several GSDs who with no training instinctively tried to protect their owners in a crisis. "Tried" is the operative word. The attempt is enough against most humans; but for someone armed and determined, it might not be enough. (And as said above, the presence of a klarge dog is often enough deterent alone.) The instince to protect does not come with the knowledge and experience to do so effectively. And an untrained dog might take too long to realize that something more than an alert to a stranger is needed.

Protection against other animals seems to come with a degree of instinctive knowledge of how to respond.

Joy, I find your reply *amazing*.
I've been in the process of writing a book about real world protection events for four years now and I've reviewed 1400 alleged protection events ( and interviewed over 250 people now ) with a less than .5% finding of a dog actually protecting its owner.

For you to know of "several GSD's" that were involved in a protection event is more than most active Police K9 handlers would know.
How is it that you came up with these amazing numbers, may I ask?

Know OF, not personal experience. I have had more than one persinal experience of a dog acting protecting when it hadn't been taught.

The most dramatic was a GSD pup I had rescued with three broken bones and a dislocated shoulder. After the pup was healed (she was about 6 months old), I was walking with her off leash on the property of a cattleman while a guest. He had suggested our route. When we were almost to an open doublr gate in a solid fence, which his route would bring us through, she pricked her ears up. I noticed a sound I couldn't indentify and was trying to listen hard as I neared the gate. Suddely around the gate charged a mass of cattle. My pup was off to one side but I was smack in their path. The pup raced across the cattle's path and leaped up hitting my chest with her body, finishing off with a strong pucsh with her back paws. I was shoved to the side and the hooves were landing inches from my body. The pup went down under the cattle and I thought she was a goner. But once the cattle were passed and the dust cleared, she was fine.

What reason could have accounted for her action other than protectiveness? She had never seen cattle before, nor would her actions have protected herself. This was not a case of a dog exhibiting fear aggression which can be misidentrified as protectiveness. Nor being possessive. So why?

So let me get this straight.......your dog basically pushed you out of the way of a stampede, is that what you're saying?

So the dog was able to recognize that a moving mass of animals had the potential to injure you and the dog was able to deduce that pushing you out of the way was the correct action to "protect" you?
Sorry, I'm not buying that for a second, you just pegged the "BS Meter" at max.....

In my limited expierience in stock work with a dog, what I've seen of a dog protecting one's handler from stock is to engage the stock.

Joy, I think you were in the dog's escape route and it just knocked you out of the way.
Poor thing just bounced off you and landed "down under the cattle". JMHO of course!

 Quote: will rambeau

 Quote: joy van veen

 Quote: will rambeau

 Quote: joy van veen

I have known of several GSDs who with no training instinctively tried to protect their owners in a crisis. "Tried" is the operative word. The attempt is enough against most humans; but for someone armed and determined, it might not be enough. (And as said above, the presence of a klarge dog is often enough deterent alone.) The instince to protect does not come with the knowledge and experience to do so effectively. And an untrained dog might take too long to realize that something more than an alert to a stranger is needed.

Protection against other animals seems to come with a degree of instinctive knowledge of how to respond.

Joy, I find your reply *amazing*.
I've been in the process of writing a book about real world protection events for four years now and I've reviewed 1400 alleged protection events ( and interviewed over 250 people now ) with a less than .5% finding of a dog actually protecting its owner.

For you to know of "several GSD's" that were involved in a protection event is more than most active Police K9 handlers would know.
How is it that you came up with these amazing numbers, may I ask?

Know OF, not personal experience. I have had more than one persinal experience of a dog acting protecting when it hadn't been taught.

The most dramatic was a GSD pup I had rescued with three broken bones and a dislocated shoulder. After the pup was healed (she was about 6 months old), I was walking with her off leash on the property of a cattleman while a guest. He had suggested our route. When we were almost to an open doublr gate in a solid fence, which his route would bring us through, she pricked her ears up. I noticed a sound I couldn't indentify and was trying to listen hard as I neared the gate. Suddely around the gate charged a mass of cattle. My pup was off to one side but I was smack in their path. The pup raced across the cattle's path and leaped up hitting my chest with her body, finishing off with a strong pucsh with her back paws. I was shoved to the side and the hooves were landing inches from my body. The pup went down under the cattle and I thought she was a goner. But once the cattle were passed and the dust cleared, she was fine.

What reason could have accounted for her action other than protectiveness? She had never seen cattle before, nor would her actions have protected herself. This was not a case of a dog exhibiting fear aggression which can be misidentrified as protectiveness. Nor being possessive. So why?

So let me get this straight.......your dog basically pushed you out of the way of a stampede, is that what you're saying?

So the dog was about to recognize that a moving mass of animals had the potential to injure you and the dog was able to deduce that pushing you out of the way was the correct action to "protect" you?
Sorry, I'm not buying that for a second, you just pegged the "BS Meter" at max.....

If you had ever spent a few weeks at The Seeing Eye you would regularly see guide dogs making decisions based on deductions on less liklye understandings. Deducing the likely movements of motor vehicles and there potential danger, for instance, must be at least as hard as predicting the movements of a herd animal and their potential danger for a herding breed.

Much of what guides dogs do is NOT done through obeying commands. The person gives directional requests, such as forward, left, right, and halt. The dog takes those requests and decides how to get you where you need to go. If you think what my pup did was so amazing, you should read the biography of "Buddy", the first Seeing Eye Dog; and other guide dog biographies.

Crossing a typical 4 or 6 lane street where there is no light, requires the dog to anticipate where the traffic will be as the team reaches each lane. This is considered a basic skill, not an out of the ordinary expectation. Taking a detour because though the path is clear, a large trucks movement will soon block it, is another not infrequent occurance. Yes, most dogs can't do so. That is why outside of the breeding programs such as The Seeing Eye's, less than 2% of dogs pass the requirements. But those that do, regularly make complicated decisions which are based on predicting the movements or actions of people, machines, or what have you.

Bob, thanks for the most likely explanation.

And Joy, in case you didn't get it, I by no means thought that what your dog did was "amazing" - however, your ability to mis-read a dog's behavior remains constant.

Hey Will,

I was just curious how you defined the .5% in your book of dogs actually protecting people vs the other sources of that behavior. I've always found the idea of instinctual protection perturbing because the behavior displayed in canines is very close to possession guarding.

I always thought the perceived protection stories in untrained dogs had more to do handler anxiety, insecure dogs, possession, etc than actual protection behavior. Even livestock guardian dogs aren't really guarding livestock it's just a benefit of having a dog with significant predator aggression in a field with a bunch of sheep .

I feel the need to point out the difference between a 6 month puppy and a TRAINED guide dog.
Or does Seeing Eye just teach 5 or 10 commands and then flunk out the dogs that allow their handlers to fall down an open manhole.


Lassie, run to town and get a rope.
Timmy's fallen down the well.

Joy, this thread began as a dog vs human aggressor question by the OP...no where in any of your posts have you addressed this original post discussion. You have gone on & on about how you have known of GSDs that have protected owners against dangers. Which appreas to be more of the dog's self preservation then anything else for the most part or dog/aninmal agression. Dogs & other animals will 'protect' againt other aminal agressions for various reasons & even people in some cases (like my poodle I described) because of possession/resource guarding, territory, fear, insecurity etc. But REAL PROTECTION of an owner/handler in the face of HUMAN AGGRESSION is a whole other thing, as I stated previously. It realy doesn't appear that you have much knowledge in this area to contribute on this thread,based on the examples you have stated. If you wish to discuss all the wonderful things seeing eye dogs do for their handlers, of which there are many, or about something other than this OPs original post & go on about your 'known' examples...it woud be best that you use a new thread about that topic.