They didn't kill his pets over some joints. They had possibly bad information and were expecting something worse. Why tan their hides over it?

It seems to me that the MO legislators and the PD there as a whole *might* be culpable and could change some things but why shoot the delivery man?

I haven't seen any news headlines about gunning down jaywalkers or cutting off the hands of shoplifters so how about we keep this discussion in the real world happening around us?

By the way, I'm with you Will, any assholes come storming into my *nonlawbreakinghouse* will be shot.

Words cannot describe that at all.... Abuse of power doesn't even cover it . My Family have a long history as LEOs in the UK and this disgusts me , i have a lot of respect for the jobs they do but surely there is nothing that can be forgiven this SWAT team for the way they conducted this raid... brute force and rash decisions never achieved anything.

 Quote: will rambeau

And as far as the other guy breaking the law.......Kill his pets over some joints? Really? How about gunning down a jay walker - after all, they'd be "breaking the law". Or maybe cut off a shoplifter's hands?
What are we - a third world banana republic?

I think that you need to look up the term "slippery slope", and maybe the term "equal protection under the law", while you're at it.

No I haven't but I have seen a lot of Monday morning quarterbacking which is justified discussion but in the end usually gives the officer involved benefit of the doubt. Dark house, barking dog in what we're assuming was a crate (didn't see a crated dog on video) please put me on the jury at least I'll be home for lunch. If nothing had been truly wrong and this guy was innocent (rather than pleading guilty)I'd be with you on this. Instead, we have a guy who is violating parole and bringing this stuff into his house, he is the one responsible for this since apparently his name wasn't likely just drawn out of a hat. Yes it's sad his dog died, even sadder that his kid saw, but honestly they did a illegal drug raid and found something illegal, just not in the ounces required for a major conviction. If they had would that change the case? If it had been a different drug? If shooting the dog is unjustified at what point does it become justified? If the house raid itself was unjustified how much evidence is needed before it is?
My knowledge of these things are limited but I assume a warrant was signed by someone based upon evidence?

As far as shooting jaywalkers yeah, it happens, usually resulting from the actions of that jaywalker to escalate the situation, just like shootings that result from vehicle stops for a crooked license plate. Police abuse happens and anytime a weapon is fired scrutiny is needed but again I save my outrage for those that have no behaviors/actions who bring police to their door since everything else falls into that realm of fuzzy gray judgment calls. Last I knew equal protection while does apply to those who commit crimes based upon who they are, doesn't apply based upon what they have done, verb being different than a noun. If that were the case we wouldn't have sex offender registries.

The reason I like (if that's the right term) the Maryland case is because innocent guy was targeted incorrectly, had the drugs delivered to his house by the police dept, and afterwords did something about it. Laws in Maryland for oversight on these raids changed and as of Feb this is going to court.

Anyway, it's just the way I see it.

Edited by Melissa Thom (05/06/2010 06:44 AM)
Edit reason: punctuation rocks!

Without outrage over situations like this, where do you think we would end up?

If we accept things like this, what will be the next thing we accept?

And for the record, the vast majority of LEO have my utmost respect. They do a job day after day that I am unable and unwilling to do.

God Bless them.

 Quote: will rambeau

I put my ass on the line for 7 years as an LEO and 21 years in Special Forces in multiple wars, so thanks, but I'll hold onto my outrage over crap like *this*.
This was bad police work, plain and simple.

Quoted for relevance and truth. If Will doesn't have the "right" to question these actions who does?

 Quote: will rambeau

Melissa,
I agree that the Maryland case should be always remembered, but if that hadn't involved the mayor, would it have it been swept under the rug? Likely so.

And as far as the other guy breaking the law.......Kill his pets over some joints? Really? How about gunning down a jay walker - after all, they'd be "breaking the law". Or maybe cut off a shoplifter's hands?
What are we - a third world banana republic?

I think that you need to look up the term "slippery slope", and maybe the term "equal protection under the law", while you're at it.

In other words, the ends do not justify the means.

It flat out appalls me that some people in this country think that any use of force is justified for even the smallest of infractions and that the actions of LEOs should never be questioned...even by other LEOs.

I agree with Will in every regard on this matter. Yes, Melissa, if he had been an actual dealer with large quantities instead of a personal user keeping his use to the privacy of his own home, it would have been different.

Scott, that's fine. We're all entitled to our own opinion. I just haven't heard anything that said "this is 100% unjustified" based upon a video and an unsubstantiated account of a crated dog. I'm not saying that the outrage isn't unjustified. People get upset when things like dogs and kids are involved. I understand that. I don't like seeing dogs shot in their owners homes anymore than anyone else.

However you have to look at this beyond the emotion of the event. Where precisely did this go sideways (if indeed a error occurred) and who is responsible for that?

I'm not a PO and find it interesting that I'm the only one wondering about this but so be it. It's my opinion that there is simply not enough information to truly call this event totally off base.

I defer, in large part, to Will's experience and expertise on this matter. He's already provided his opinions on your questions.

I'll turn your argument around. What if there hadn't been any marijuana on the premises and this was completely bad info provided by a neighbor from hell? Would you still think "oh, well, it's his fault"? What if a child had been killed as a result of poor choice of those LEOs? What happens to this child's impression of LE after this incident? If find it odd that you aren't asking yourself those questions.

 Quote: scott garrett

I'll turn your argument around. What if there hadn't been any marijuana on the premises and this was completely bad info provided by a neighbor from hell? Would you still think "oh, well, it's his fault"? What if a child had been killed as a result of poor choice of those LEOs? What happens to this child's impression of LE after this incident? If find it odd that you aren't asking yourself those questions.

You mean like Ruby Ridge? Yeah... it happened and the government last I recalled settled for several million and revised some policies over it. When wrong is wrong I'm game for learning from those situations. When wrong is sorta kinda maybe wrong then I think a closer look is needed before we call something police abuse.

But again, there isn't a lot of good information on this case. A shakey vid and net blogging isn't a complete story. No hard news beyond the Columbia tribune writing a blurb article about it exists and I certainly haven't seen the police reports. So until then I go on the facts of the case. Drug raid happened which usually means a warrant was signed, dogs were shot (breed doesn't matter), guy pleaded guilty to drug possession which was classified as a misdemeanor. So unless someone can point something out in the video or the news story I'm missing... where did things get unjustified based upon the information the police had presented? If the argument can be made that they didn't have enough for a raid that in my eyes goes to the judge that agreed to sign the warrant.

Wow, this one is truly disturbing on so many levels. That poor child having to be witness to this!
I have the utmost respect for the majority of LEO's, but this one is just disturbing. I too would hold a SWAT team to a higher standard because they are trained to deal with these kinds of situations. They failed big time!
No justifiable reason to shoot the family dogs.
Very disturbing.

Pittie SHOT while running AWAY from police officer!

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/201/justice-for-bella

http://www.foxcharlotte.com/news/nc-news/92833669.html


I finally got through the clip that Will originally posted and slept restless all noc and then awake to find the above clip in my email to sign a petition. I have many friend that are PO, chiefs... I have been trying to keep an open mind for all involved. But maybe it is time for the public to demand a change of protocol or lack of....