Dear SCh111FH2

I just logged on to this site to check it out and found this topic.

How Ironic since I learned this past weekend how to get aggression in Ob.
I have a nice female 3 yrs old Almost ready for Sch1 that I was not happy with her heeling. I used a ball and did all the normal Ball and hot dogs ect. But her work was not flashy or tail wagging no matter how much I jumped clapped talked excitedly! So a friend mentioned this training through aggression, and I have seen many top trainers do it. Although I had no experience with it. I went to someone who did. This is a great topic. The Key is never shut out any avenues. And don't think that Top trainers can't only train with Force or only train with food. It happens everyday.
Thanks again
Dellavom

 Quote:

So a friend mentioned this training through aggression, and I have seen many top trainers do it. Although I had no experience with it. I went to someone who did

As I am lost again maybe someone could give some clear EXAMPLES of this? After the collapsing of my previous interpretation I feel completely stupid <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> (maybe I should <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> )

I'll join VanCamp and others in asking Dellavom or Steve C. to post a more detailed description of what you are talking about. What did you change, step by step. And I still and will always say that the huge majority of mainsteam sport trainers at the top of the game are training with a balanced mixture of play (positive reinforcement) and avoidance conditioning, not one extreme or the other.

Originally posted by Sch3FH2:
I'll join VanCamp and others in asking Dellavom or Steve C. to post a more detailed description of what you are talking about. What did you change, step by step. And I still and will always say that the huge majority of mainsteam sport trainers at the top of the game are training with a balanced mixture of play (positive reinforcement) and avoidance conditioning, not one extreme or the other. I will conceade that there are alot of trainers that train with a mixture of play, and avoidance. To what extreme they are leaning on or anyone for that trains like that, depends on where you are in your training, and what needs to be worked on.

The way I have been made to understand teaching for say heeling from the start, using complusion and avoidacne of course there is a positave side. I don't ever think there I said there was not. So to start with the dog knows how to play. You can play with the dog a bit, and then put the ball away. But when you are playing you make a sound like hissing for example, to have the dog associate the sound with the ball.(This is something you have to imprint and the dogs needs to know this) Then you have the dog on a prong. You would hiss, and the dog would look up and a pressure would be apllied to get the dog to move along with you and maintain focus. When the dog is out of place and does not focus, and gets pressured, or if his head goes down etc. When the dog is in the good postion he is praised and maybe even given a little food. After a few steps until you see the dog is learning you give him the ball. For a bit, the dog is a little nervous but after time he learns how to understand the pressure and avoid it by staying in postion, and thus with the rewards the heeling spot becomes a great spot. I have done this with a few dogs, and it works. The thing is that you have to be very quick and hard enough with the pressure to get the dog to understand otherwise you end up with confusion and a crappy looking picture. Now by stressing the dog it is a border line social aggression issue in the above-mentioned fashion, but if the dog is not a crazy nut, he will channel that pressure towards driving you for his ball over time thus creating intensity, and focus. Over time there will be less stress and it will learn not to lag or not focus, and there will be more rewards then corrections. But in the start, or polishing phases there is going to be more corrections then after a period of time of working the dog there will be fewer.

What I have been told is the key is to apply enough pressure to make the dog avoid what you do not want him/her to do, but to be carefull not to over stress the dog. Also if you fail to put enough pressure you will end up with a dog that is slow and not fast at all. I have seen this.

What I have learned is to channel the aggression from the corrections while teaching the avoidence phase to driving harder for the prey reward. Every dog is different so one dog may need more stress and less rewards, while the other may need more rewards and less stress. The end result with this type of training is a picture of intensity and focus, with good speed, and a very correct looking picture if done right.

That was a good description of escape conditioning followed by avoidance conditioning, and yup it works. Has for centuries. Now my question is this: if you have a dog who has a strong attraction to the ball or tug or even food, and you know how to manipulate that drive to make the dog WANT to OFFER the desired behavior, and thus completely avoid the stressful period that escape/avoidance trg brings, wouldn't it be preferable?

Now we're rollin. . .

Originally posted by Sch3FH2:
That was a good description of escape conditioning followed by avoidance conditioning, and yup it works. Has for centuries. Now my question is this: if you have a dog who has a strong attraction to the ball or tug or even food, and you know how to manipulate that drive to make the dog WANT to OFFER the desired behavior, and thus completely avoid the stressful period that escape/avoidance trg brings, wouldn't it be preferable? This in my view would depend on the temperment and character of the dog. If I had a dog that was super hard in character, and had great drive and focus then sure. This would be an easier way to train this type of dog, then after go through a proofing phase to make him reliable.

If I have a dog that has a strong hard temperment, that has GOOD drive and has somes social aggression issue's towards others, then no. I would most likley take the avoidence approach with this type of dog, as I feel starting the dog the way you described would not produce reliable results with this type of dog.

Remember I am not talking about older dogs, but dogs that are in the 12 to 20 month ball park. I find that the stronger dogs work more reliable and accurate with more of an escape approach. I find this more so when there is only a good prey attraction not super. Also I like this method if the dog is a bit more hectic and cannot really control itself and focus.

In my view it really comes down to the dog to decide what method to use.

Actually,
I do not think this thread is stupid at all. It simply brings up an aspect of training many people do not know about nor understand. The goal here is to become as educated in the art of dog training as possible. What good is dicussion if there is no thought process behind it. The people that use various methods of training or the ones who are willing to be open minded are usually the ones competing at higher levels no matter the "dicipline" those who choose the route of hot dogs and toys are no less of a trainer than those who use compulsion.
Bernhard Flinks does not only use Positive, Just like Joanne Plumb does not only use positive. They do not make videos of the other stuff. I have enjoyed this thread , I hope there are more competitve people out there! See ya at the Nationals 2004!

Hey Michael, you're still in the kitchen but you have moved over to the stove. All that's left is to turn on the burners!

By saying this I mean that you have the concept of what I am referring to but I don't think you apply the needed degree of pressure that I do.

First off, we all agree with the positive and negative reinforcement. You can call it fear, avoidance, or whatever you want to call it...it doesn't matter...what I want is nervous energy. Then I promote the nervous energy into an exercise and then I have drive.

The only reason that I use protection as an example is because it is easier for you to put it in view.

When explaining something on the internet it's hard for me to know others level of experience or understanding of drives.

For me it's not the level of presssure but the response to the pressure I get. I want them all in defense/fear first then I will get aggression. I don't care if it is line-bred 2-3 crapper or 2-3 Karthago.

Another example: Retrieves-
As soon as the dumbell hits the ground I start to load my dog with a stimulis. That way when I say "bring" he unloads on the dumbell in aggression. I get a very fast, realiable retrieve.

And no, Sch3Fh2...I am not going to drive 8 hours to get out of the car and figure out my dog is not hungry or does not want to play with his ball. I am not talking about training on home field I am talking about competing at National levels.

Originally posted by Steve C:
And no, Sch3Fh2...I am not going to drive 8 hours to get out of the car and figure out my dog is not hungry or does not want to play with his ball. I am not talking about training on home field I am talking about competing at National levels. Thanks so much for the snide, arrogant answer that didn't answer my question. And silly me thought you meant only training in my own backyard, protected from the world by a privacy fence. We both know that I'm not talking about depending upon MARGINAL drives that disappear just cuz it's a new environment or cuz it's hot, etc. I'm talking about high drive, environmentally secure dogs that simply don't turn down the opportunity to earn their reward, and there's a TON of them out there these days. It's just using their natural, always present drives to produce a dog that loves to work. If the prey and food drives are marginal, then fear is always an option becuz it can always be generated.