I buy the 3 that are fine on the cheaper kibble as a 'working dog' feed which doesn't have VAT on it, (taxes) saves 20 pc on a 17kg sack, the better quality stuff Kaiser is on for his yeast problem, is, of course, MUCH more expensive, but I get it through work so get it at cost, half the cost of retail, but doesn't have the 'working dog' loophole.

Just as a by the way, Kaiser has been on the Brown Rice and Chicken Burns for about 6 weeks, and the difference has been amazing, no more scratching, they are cool to the touch, and nice and pale pink; such a relief for him bless his heart, I am just going to suck up the cost.

Still haven't ruled out going back to raw for the Boerboels - that would be the best case scenario, just involves shelling out for electricity supply to the outhouse and a chest freezer, not out f the question though....

 Quote: CJ Barrett

We also always have at least a 15 lb bag of Orijen in the house. My boys love this stuff, it's one of their higher value treats and super simple to get into their treat balls.

I've read here many times that it's not a safe or recommended practice to feed raw and kibble, which I don't at meal times. But I think nothing of a training session prior to meals or an in between, afternoon treat ball snack full of kibble.

With Orijen being quite high in the protein department, I hear many times that some dogs don't do well on it, producing soft stools or diarrhea (and have no idea what causes this).

But with its high protein base, does this allow it to travel through their system quicker than some of the more grain based products? And are there certain kibbles that would be potentially "safer" to feed amongst raw?

Interesting question!

I do the Orijen thing too (my dog LOVE that stuff as training treats). In fact right now they either get orijen as a meal or THK/raw because I've been busy and sometimes forget to pull meat out of the freezer.

There is always about 24 hours between meals (since I feed once a day) and several hours between kibble training snacks (which amounts to 1/2-3/4 c/day) and a regular meal. I've never had any issues feeding this way.

Interestingly enough Kenzi, with her super sensitive digestive system, has done really great with this method of feeding and I can go back and forth with her with no digestive upsets. She doesn't handle the variety with 100% raw as well, but can handle most any raw when mixed 50/50 with THK. And if she gets a meal of Orijen here she's just fine with it (compared to kibbles with grain where she'd get diarrhea at the drop of a hat)

The 'cheap' meat that I buy is mostly locally sourced, fresh and organic, but not necessarily the parts a person would consume (like chicken frames; $20/50lbs). I have no problem at all feeding it to my dog because I knew where it lived and how it was cared for

 Quote: Kristel Smart

.... I have no problem at all feeding it to my dog because I knew where it lived and how it was cared for

This is my major consideration, too.


CJ asked: "And are there certain kibbles that would be potentially "safer" to feed amongst raw? "

No. It's the kibble process that makes kibble take 3x as long as fresh to clear out.

THK (and others of its ilk), canned or "pouch" commercial foods, and homecooked foods do not present this potential problem, BTW.

 Quote: Julie Sloan

.... Does the quality of "cheap" meat concern you all? And that is not meant to be a smart-aleck ?, but an honest one.

Like Tracy, I care that I know and have chosen, smelled, stored, and handled every item that goes into the bowls.

I could reduce the quality of the RMBs and meat I feed by about 90%, IMO, and still be giving better quality than what goes into most kibble.

Dogs are scavengers. But I do avoid unnatural pathogen loads by keeping commercially pre-ground meats out of their diets. (That is, I never buy pre-ground meats, either poultry or red meat, any more. I do have whole birds ground to order, though, with a call ahead, and then I divide it into smaller portions for storage. I also do some grinding myself. {I have a small senior with dental challenges whose weight-bearing RMBs, like legs, are "chili-ground.})

Thanks for all the input on the "cheap" meat ?. A better way to put that would have been extremely reasonably priced meats. My experience with grocery store counter cheap meats has not been good, for the reason someone spoke of. All the unnatural ingredients that are found there. I wish I could afford organic even for myself, but can't.

I see that your "cheap" priced meats aren't in quality of the meat, but in the type of meat. Interesting.

I have been wanting to email the farm where we will be buying our meat to see if they have any rottie sized RMB's available. Maybe that would be a good start for food itself if we decided to go that way.

As for the feeding raw and kibble at the same time, I have no idea myself, but will repeat what i was told at the dog food store where we buy the orijin. She told me that the salesperson who sells her the pre-packaged raw told her to advise her clients not to feed both, but to feed one or the other because of the change in the ph of the dog's stomach with raw vs kibble. When she said most of her clients cannot afford ALL pre-packaged raw, he said then he would prefer they didn't feed it at all. Interesting, but I'm sure the experienced people here will know how accurate that really is.

Back to the meat thing. One of my main concerns with chicken was the awful additive they were putting in feed, something like arsenic with a long name I can pronounce but not spell. Supposed to be unlawful now to add it to food, I think since last year, and I checked and made sure it is also against the law now in Canada since I feed the chicken food from there.

 Quote: Julie Sloan

I see that your "cheap" priced meats aren't in quality of the meat, but in the type of meat. Interesting.

I have been wanting to email the farm where we will be buying our meat to see if they have any rottie sized RMB's available. Maybe that would be a good start for food itself if we decided to go that way.

As for the feeding raw and kibble at the same time, I have no idea myself, but will repeat what i was told at the dog food store where we buy the orijin. She told me that the salesperson who sells her the pre-packaged raw told her to advise her clients not to feed both, but to feed one or the other

http://leerburg.com/webboard/thread.php?topic_id=30109&page=1#334998


Can you get chicken backs from that farm? Chicken backs, even from the best poultry you can buy, are still cheap .... nice RMBs! Beef doesn't offer much in the way of RMBs, which are the basis of the raw diet (although there are plenty of beef cuts that great for the MM and very cheap because humans don't want them ).

This thread has some thoughts about cheap RMBs and MM, I believe:

http://leerburg.com/webboard/thread.php?topic_id=26399&page=2

http://leerburg.com/webboard/thread.php?topic_id=26399&page=1

For most people that feed raw, cheap is the cut or part of the animal being fed. But your dog doesn't care, and there's no nutritional difference. Filet mignon and brisket are both beef, one costs $2 a pound, the other is $18. Whole duck is $5 a pound. Duck necks are less than a dollar. The trick is finding resources for these "waste" cuts that most people find undesirable. Most chain grocery stores don't even sell chicken backs because they are really only good for making stock, but every chicken slaughtered has (had) a back, so they are out there somewhere. And like Connie said, they are perfect dog food.

 Quote: Tracy Collins

For most people that feed raw, cheap is the cut or part of the animal being fed. But your dog doesn't care, and there's no nutritional difference. Filet mignon and brisket are both beef, one costs $2 a pound, the other is $18. Whole duck is $5 a pound. Duck necks are less than a dollar. The trick is finding resources for these "waste" cuts that most people find undesirable. Most chain grocery stores don't even sell chicken backs because they are really only good for making stock, but every chicken slaughtered has (had) a back, so they are out there somewhere. And like Connie said, they are perfect dog food.

'Zackly!

I wish I had video of my 18-pound dental-challenged elderly adoptee chewing on his chicken backs with a blissful look .... eyes half closed, just munch-munch-munching on all that cartilage and soft bone ..... in his little zone of happiness ....

But there'd be no way he could either chew or swallow whole a chicken quarter, which would cost about 6 times as much per pound.

And the big dogs might wolf them down a lot faster, but no less happily!



PS
IMO, you can't beat chicken backs for RMBs, no matter how much or how little you spend. They need MM added, but for the RMB part, they are both chewy and digestible. They even have little teeny organs attached (kidneys)!

Edited by Connie Sutherland (03/11/2012 08:31 PM)
Edit reason: PS