Re: my pack and their visitors
[Re: andrew harris ]
#365245 - 08/14/2012 12:55 PM |
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When you add a third dog, things change quite a bit. You skipped right to four.
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Re: my pack and their visitors
[Re: steve strom ]
#365246 - 08/14/2012 01:25 PM |
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http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u165/bosscat69/DCP_0006-1.jpg
I agree I am not new to keeping more than 3 dogs the above picture is of my previous psck of which one still remains.My dogs are confronted with agression from other dogs when I am walking them altogether and have never had a problem in getting them to ignore the agressive dog/s and to walk calmly past and I am not dragging them or them dragging me .
One of the reasons I video the dogs so much is so I can analyse them in more detail and look at where I should of corrected and did not.If you see the video below ,taken when one of the females was in season presenting an extra challenge for me. On reviewing the video realised I should of corected the mle dog at around 8 and half minutes.The idea I try an instill is to focus me .
http://youtu.be/zGiCOFORLjY
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Re: my pack and their visitors
[Re: Duane Hull ]
#365247 - 08/14/2012 01:33 PM |
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if you look at the body language of the bordeaux you will note there is no sign of fear coming from her she saw it as a game her tail never went between her legs at anytime.
Andrew;
Though her tail was not tucked, there are some signs of submission that you are overlooking. One way that dogs establish dominance is by "teeing up" or standing over another dog. Every time the Bordeaux attempts to evade the Neos, she comes over to you. That is her way of saying "I need help...please protect me." IMHO, the reason there was no escalation is that THE BORDEAUX AVOIDED IT BY SUBMITTING EVERY TIME. Though you didn't allow physical harm to the visitor, you seem oblivious to the fact that your pack is bullying her, and she wants nothing more than to escape.
I'm sure that everything did go smoothly subsequent to this initial filming. The Bordeaux quickly learned what she had to do to survive, that she was on her own, and that she could expect no help from the human pack leader. Dogs aren't dumb.
In the form of constructive criticism, you can learn alot from the body language of your visiting dogs. All three look to the videographer (you, the human pack leader) for leadership and direction, not your pack of canine peers. Even the little white puppy, who is not dominated or intimidated by your pack, looks directly at YOU when there is a pause and he's not sure what's going on.
Do you see the signs of avoidance and submission in Misty, the tiny black-and-white bull terrier in your first video? The folded ears, the tucked tail, the look of uncertainty in her eyes as she tries to creep closer to you for protection?
Your pack is fairly well behaved and they interact with each other very well, but you seem to be in denial about some aspects of their discipline. Do you notice all of the refusals in your OB sessions? I ask this because I see no corrections or do-overs; just repeated requests from you (almost like asking for compliance).
Most of the posters on this forum that have large packs, from what I've seen, talk about being the human pack leader, about dogs not being allowed to enforce rank or make corrections.
True enough, your pack sees you as the leader, but you seem to overlook their bad behavior at times, and you allow your visitors to suffer because of this. I sometimes have the same problem with my single, hyper, alpha dog. However, I have learned to pay attention, correct the situation, make amends to any I have offended, and remove one or all dogs to prevent further occurrences.
I hope this comes across as constructive. You have beautiful dogs that get along very well as a pack. They would be even better with a little more guidance in some of these situations, and a little more OB. In any event, this is all just MY opinion.
Absolutely great post and very informative thank you
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Re: my pack and their visitors
[Re: Connie Sutherland ]
#365248 - 08/14/2012 01:55 PM |
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BTW, I (and I am sure others) appreciate members like you who post clips and are then willing to discuss any criticism that might come up without taking offense and leaving in a huff.
I
When people leave in a huff they loose the opportunity to learn and I always want to learn
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Re: my pack and their visitors
[Re: andrew harris ]
#365249 - 08/14/2012 01:56 PM |
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You are very welcome! I am glad you can handle the criticism. Please know that it comes from this forum's deep caring for dogs, and is not meant to tear you down, but rather to build you up. We all want to see others succeed, and noone or no dog to be hurt in the process. Trust me, we all have made our mistakes, and I have stuck my foot in my mouth more times than I was right.
As you know, dogs pick up on body language quicker than anything else, and there is much to be gleened from their body language. Hopefully you are now equipped to sense when an outside dog is feeling stressed and needs a break from the pack.
On another note, I think it highly commendable that others think highly of your pack and prefer to leave their dogs with you. Please just be mindful that the visitor may not be as at-home as you think. If a any dog comes to you and looks you in the eyes, there is something it's trying to tell you.
Great looking out. Hang in there...
Sadie |
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Re: my pack and their visitors
[Re: andrew harris ]
#365269 - 08/14/2012 10:30 PM |
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Consider what could have happened with the Bordeaux. You acknowledge she was being submissive but you need to understand that a submissive dog can also panic and attack out of defense. That could have easily gone badly.
I'm old and crabby on a good day. My comments aren't to insult you but everyone here cares about the dogs. Hopefully you will at least consider everyone's criticism as constructive.
old dogs LOVE to learn new tricks |
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Re: my pack and their visitors
[Re: andrew harris ]
#365272 - 08/15/2012 05:39 AM |
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Re: my pack and their visitors
[Re: andrew harris ]
#365273 - 08/15/2012 06:15 AM |
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I did watch that video the first day, and it's one of them that I loved. These are the kinds of interactions that attract people to you and your pack.
Keep in mind that all dogs are different. Just keep a close eye on things and, when a dog does feel threatened, remember that it is looking to you for protection.
Sadie |
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Re: my pack and their visitors
[Re: Duane Hull ]
#365300 - 08/15/2012 01:17 PM |
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I did watch that video the first day, and it's one of them that I loved. These are the kinds of interactions that attract people to you and your pack.
Keep in mind that all dogs are different. Just keep a close eye on things and, when a dog does feel threatened, remember that it is looking to you for protection.
Yes you are quite right I am glad you mentioned about the bordeaux looking to me for direction and or protection I will be sure to keep an eye on the dogs that need my intervention to make them feel comfortable .
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Re: my pack and their visitors
[Re: andrew harris ]
#366002 - 08/31/2012 10:54 AM |
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While I have received some good advice here; having shown this topic in its entirety to a good friend and professional dog trainer who has given me help before.He had several observations ( which are just an opinion not necessarily correct)
1. Duane Hull talks about the dog which he perceives to be the alpha within my pack and about the alpha in his own pack that its described as "hyper" I didn't notice this but believe the dog he thinks is the alpha in my pack is actually not.
2 It needs to be noted that the visitors that come are on the whole not as well trained as my dogs ( my own dogs would never enter a pack in the same way as some of the dogs) and I do understand that it is my absolute responsibility to ensure the visitors come to no harm which is why I found the advice regarding the visiting dogs eye contact with me most helpful because its not just physical harm I need to make sure does not happen but mental harm too.
3. There are at least three examples where dogs have mixed off leash with my pack and no physical harm has come to them despite my breed (neapolitan mastiffs)being known for its dominance and its tendancy to fight which should indicate that extensive training must have been done to enforce the rule NO FIGHTING!!!! no matter what as each pack member has been trained to understand I sort out disputes.
4. really a challenge of sorts for forum members to publish any videos of meetings with their pack of dogs and an unknown visitor off leash, my friend thinks that there aren't many that have the confidence to allow their packs to meet others off leash on thier own turf so any takers on that challenge would be most educational to see others doing the same.
5 answer which dog in my pack actually is the alpha amongst the 4 of them my friend considers this an obvious answer.
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