The main reason for the high washout rate in some establishments is the poor selection of dogs for training and yes the dogs are better now than in the past.
In the sixties most of the PSDs I worked with were less reliable than those of today,the requirements then were very different from today.
It is very easy to question the methods and results of PSDs etc but unless you are directly involved with them,you really can never understand the problems and results required.

Good post Richard. Again show me who trains PSD in prey drive only. Where? Fight drive should be the drive your dog is in not fight or flight(defense). That is a general statement there are reasons to train in defense as well.

Some of us have given up answering the same people with the same questions. They go around and around and yet have nothing to show. They have so much to type, yet never answer a direct question. Can point to actual dogs they have trained, or for that matter do much else other than tell everyone else how they are doing it "wrong."

Hear, hear, Josh! I think that unless you are involved with either KNVP or PSD training, then you probably shouldn't be muddying up the thread with your posts.

Wonder if it's possible to make some sections of this Board *read only*? So that anyone could read the posts, but only those who had been approved by Ed could actually post? Maybe in areas about PSD training, as one example. Folks wanting to post would have to provide a bit of background info. Just a thought.
I know I'm missing good info b/c I am not willing to slog thru piles of *stuff* to get to the posts by folks I want to read.

Depends on if the software will allow that. I know that with the UBB software, you can make certain forums accessible to certain users, but that wouldn't allow anyone else to even read the posts in there. Personally, I, too would like to be able to read what these experienced individuals have to say on the topics, and not have to scroll through a lot of *stuff*, but I can understand if Ed doesn't want the hassle.

I am only adding my two cents because this thread seems to be finished otherwise I would be contributing to the “stuff”. But it would be neat if Ed had a forum for the 5 or so experts on this board to exchange ideas with one another while the rest could view only. I would pay for something like that!

The problem is that we're all "experts" in our own particular areas, and it would require too much traffic control for Ed to be able to keep track of who can post where. Plus, if you had to pay to subscribe to this board, I would not come here. I have enough stuff to pay for without adding one more thing. I think it should simply be understood that if you don't know what you're talking about in a certain thread, then don't post, and try TRY to stay on topic when you DO post. I think I'm just about as guilty as anyone of going off topic, but we could all try a bit harder, I think. Ed seems to be pretty good about closing threads once they drift too far off the original topic (like this one), so maybe if he were even more ruthless about it, people would be more careful to stay on topic if they want to see a discussion continue. It's just basic "Netiquette"......

Whoa. I think you’re throwing around the word expert a little. I can’t speak for you but I just started down this long road of protection training. I’m talking about the likes of a Kevin Sheldahl. I understand that we all have different budget constraints to work with but having a pay area in a discussion board is pretty common. Just a thought. Nothing more.

Well, I think I'm making no headway with my previous posts. I muddy the water when I use any drive terms. I used "prey", "defense", etc. because I thought I could reach common ground with most on this board and you could more easily identify with what I'm trying to say.

The fact is I don't believe in drives at all. Not at all. None of my dogs are driven. They are thinkers. There are driven dogs out there. I've seen dogs bred so hyper they would chase a tennis ball through a fan. I have seen someone refer to fight drive as different from defense. I guess our vantage points are different. In a real situation a dog or any other animal will fight or flee. Simple as that. Call it fight drive, defense drive, call it whatever you want. All these terms just muddies the water for me anyway. I only know what I see with my own eyes and my own experieces. I guess I see things in a simple way.

Richard,
Why did you wait so long to start training a pup? Puppies can handle the stress. It just can't be above their age/experience. I played baseball growing up. If I went to play catch with my 7 year old, I would not throw the ball to him as I would to you. You have to build.

Genetics are important, but so is how you build the dog. My teenage son's dog is a lab/GSD cross from the local animal shelter. I got her at 6 weeks old. My friend who trains PSD'S full time and subscribes to the beliefs of most who post here told me she was a coward when we worked together when she was about 6 months old. She went into avoidance (flight) when he agitated her. In my opinion he did push her too hard then. She is fine now. Biting hard now. Granted, her genetics are unknown and she will never be the best dog around. But, she is way past where he thought she would ever be. - Now about the dogs working to protect us. You said they don't. I know they do. But, the bond has to be there.

Training a dog in prey is just dangerous to me. Dangerous to the future police handler. If the bad guys only knew all they had to do was keep a tennis ball in the pocket, perhaps half PSD'S would chase the ball when deployed on the criminal.

Real life never lies. Have any of you seen the handlers and the dogs at the WTC site? One handler told the reporter he was too tired to play with his dog to reward him. That was his reason for the dog not performing.

Pete,
You wrote: "I've seen all this before. Sure sounds like the Gospel According to Mike McConnery. Correct me if I'm wrong (I doubt it)." - Tell me about this Mike McConnery. Maybe I can learn something from him.

No, I don't train PSD's full time. I've done many things full time. Some long enough to know you don't have to do them for 20+ years to know what you are doing. I don't claim to be an expert. I'm old enough to know there are really very, very few. But - I'm old enough to see and know from my own experiences what works.

Let's take a straw poll. Do you guys want to see postings that differ from the training philosophys taught by Mr. Frawley? If so, fine. If not, I will go away.

Regardless who believes it, a truth will stand on it's own merit.

Good day to all - Kent