This is exactly what concerns me with some of the breeds and breeding going on.

Vince said: "One of his dogs is a 9. In a bark and hold he will continually bump the sleeve instigating the helper to fight him and as soon as you correct him for this will turn around and go for you in full fight drive. He then must be hung away from the handlers body while he wildly fights until he submits or passes out."

Is this really what we want for a working dog. Is this an example of the type of temperament we want. Isn't this were we get the dogs that are so handler hard they can't be safely handled? Id this a dog you would want to take in to the street? If this story was told by a person on the board about their dog what would be the suggestion for this dog?

I don't think that this type of temperament is what is need, or even desirable in a working dog. I dont mind a dog that is hard and capable of doing extreamly hard work against a very threatening opponent. But that aggression should be directed out not at the handler. The dogs are also becoming more aggressive to neutral people also, is this a desirable quality? I think that perhaps our testosterone has gotten away from us and is showing up in dogs that are truely dangerous.

Is this what Max envisioned when the GSD was created?

I don't think that this type of temperament is what is need, or even desirable in a working dog. I dont mind a dog that is hard and capable of doing extreamly hard work against a very threatening opponent. But that aggression should be directed out not at the handler. The dogs are also becoming more aggressive to neutral people also, is this a desirable quality?

I certainly didn't imply that such behaviors are desireable.

This is an interesting thread. I would like to ask now what makes a dog hard to handle? Ed posted somewhere that dogs like Itor and Otis just don't like very many people. What does that mean? Further why are people impling that a good stud should be hard to handle. If a dog was 9 and easy to handle won't you rather bred him then a 10 than you can't?

Also, I just read Vince's post. Why would anyone want that dog. It is a liability. That dog is like owning a gun that shoots you when you don't fire it.

Thanks

Robert

Kevin,

At times I get the impression that many people do advocate these traits as desireable. "My dog can kick your (dog's)...." syndrome. Another part of this is the idea that these types of dogs are acceptable, that these are the dogs that are 9-10's on the scale and as such are desirable as breeding stock. If we accept that this type of rank behavior is genetic, and not desireable, why is it selected for?

My other question that goes with this is how much of these dogs attitude is created by lack odf socialization. At times I see things that make me believe that many people would like their dog to be so hard that they don't socialize properly and end up with a dog that just won't accept people based on the method that they were raised. Ed has often stated that Otis didn't like many people, and I am not suggesting that the dog has to everybodies buddy, yet on one of the tapes I have it shows him in the Office doing just fine with the secretaries and a visitor that came in. So even though the dog may not be the friendliest dog in the world, he is certainly capable of functioning as a social enough dog to be interacting with people he doesn't know well. That is much more in line with my ideal of a good working dog than to say that he is not accepting of strangers.

Kevin,

When I was at the Flinks seminar...Bernhard mentioned something I think is interesting regarding these dogs.

Bernhard was discussing levels of dogs and handler hardness. He was stating he would really like to have a puppy he raised try to go at him one time. But doubts this will ever happen as it will have been raised by him, and thus know it can't. This leads me to believe that a handler agressive dog, in different hands might not be handler agressive. I know, I know age old question. However, I think it has some merit. I have 3 dogs, all of which I was told are handler hard. None of them are. Is it me? Is it them? Or was I lied to? I have my ideas...

Todd,
First, hardness is the ability to withstand and or recover from stress.
Rank behaviors result in a dog that challenges the handler when told to perform a task.
Rank behaviors that cannot be cleared up are a detriment to the work.
A dog that shows rank with somneone who is new is NOT a bad dog. A dog, who is in the right hands, and cannot be cleared of the rank problems will not a top performer. It should only be bred if the breeder determines that they have dog that have become too submisive (the flip side of rank, dogs that try to include everyone into their pack with themselves as being subservient to the.....a real problem with working dog but maybe not the lap dog). Like other character traits you have to have all things in balance.
Too many people think that because their dog will eat the hadlers butt that the dog is a tough critter. These type of dogs tend to perform bite work better on the handler than on real bad guys. They are all bluff and blow until they get to know you (familiarity breeds contempt is true with rank dogs).
The first visit that Bernhard made to the U.S. I was handling a dog that gripped to his ears, showed a ferocious attitude towards the bad guy, but was soo rank that after the forced retrieve (which was a test for me to see if I could clear this dog up) he would just sit in front of me with a dumbell loosly hanging on his canines growling. Even when he had to performe the skill he couldn't let go of not being alpha. In this case the inability to take a position in the pack discouraged me from keeping the dog. It is abnormal for a dog to not be able to take a lesser position.
Now there are many dogs that have really nasty rank behaviors that never should have been allowed to develope them at all. But, too often people want every ounce of drive out of their dogs that they are afraid to stop innapropriate behaviors when they first crop up and the dog begins to experiment with those behaviors in their ways of dealing with the handler and others. This is a huge mistake that all too often, particularly in the 9 dogs, leads to them walking all over poeple.
I can quite simply tell you that I will identify and squash rank behaviors in the adolescent dog, I don't care what the imagined result in drive reduction is, it is drive directed in a useless and difficult to manage way. It is like thinking a pup should be taught to chase children and cars to prepare them for bitework. It just doesn't make sense.

See thats what I like about you Kevin, you take the time to thoughoughly answer a question! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I see the difference you are talking about. I also think that others on this list(myself included) where mis reading some of the discussion.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Kevin,

When I was at the Flinks seminar...Bernhard mentioned something I think is interesting regarding these dogs.

Bernhard was discussing levels of dogs and handler hardness. He was stating he would really like to have a puppy he raised try to go at him one time. But doubts this will ever happen as it will have been raised by him, and thus know it can't. This leads me to believe that a handler agressive dog, in different hands might not be handler agressive. I know, I know age old question. However, I think it has some merit. I have 3 dogs, all of which I was told are handler hard. None of them are. Is it me? Is it them? Or was I lied to? I have my ideas...

This is not my strong area when it comes to Sch, but I think as the last posting shows things can be relative. What is "hard" to one handler is "weak" to another. Many times I know dogs who have tried to bash a handler daily, yet put them with someone new, and no problem at all. I think some dogs and some people just don't mix. It's bound to happen. It might not be the dog or the person's fault, just a bad match.

As for a dog going at you one time, I guess it's not a good or bad thing. My first Mal, years ago was a bit rank now that I look at it in hind sight. He would snap, and make a big show out of some things, but never "really" try to hurt me over anything. My now retired dog, in many ways is/was a much harder dog than my first Mal. He has almost ZERO prey or defense, and it took me forever to even get him barking at people. He would just stand there and eye &*%^ them and hope they would do something stupid so he could bite them. He was/is a extremly high fight drive dog and so confident he taught me a great deal. He has NEVER even looked at me cross-eyed let alone come at me for something. He actually is pretty handler aware and I just need to raise a verbal tone a bit for him to fall in line.

My last Mal who I had to put down a few months back was a RANK monster...he was a true ass and lived up to all the crap you hear about rank, handler hard dogs. To his defense, I did ask my friend in Holland to find me a green dog with that attitude as I wanted something challanging to work with for myself...bordom is a dangerous thing at times...LOL. He was a ture F you make me, and you better mean it or I will correct the snot out of you dog. He was a nightmare in some instances, but we did work through it. It got to where he'd only come at me once or twice a month over something. We did get to the point where when he knew I would come back at him, he'd stop and back off, but it did take a while and some close calls to get there. As much as I asked for it, and dearly miss the jackass, I don't miss his crap. It in all honesty it didn't make him any harder or more capable than my last two Mals. I guess in some ways it just made training that much harder for me. It did also become a pain in that he was not very social, and we had to build a special kennel for him as no one could get near him but me. Hardness and Rank, I'm not sure by his example are totally needed to that extreme. I have worked and trained plenty of hard workin PSDs that were not handler hard to believe you need a rank attitude to get the job done. As I will be getting a new dog come June, I don't think I'll ask for the same "attitude" again. I guess it's be careful what you wish for....LOL

Josh can you explain how your dog had almost no prey/defence but had high fight?