Robert VanCamp wrote 09/05/2003 05:40 PM Re: defense agiation with a muzzle for schH [Re: RobertR ] #36331 - 09/05/2003 05:40 PM
Robert VanCamp Webboard User Reg: 11-28-2001 Posts: 3916 Loc: Offline	I think that is wrong. There has to be some element of fear for you to see defense drive. There has to be some threat that turns on the nerves of the dog. There doesn't have to be a lot of avoidance, but there is some fear that brings out a defensive response in every case. There certainly can be other characteristics you are seeing in the, "You want some of this punk?", attitude of a dog, but it wouldn't be defense drive if there is no fear.
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Renee Felknor wrote 09/05/2003 06:15 PM Re: defense agiation with a muzzle for schH [Re: RobertR ] #36332 - 09/05/2003 06:15 PM
Renee Felknor Webboard User Reg: 07-21-2001 Posts: 264 Loc: WI Offline	VanCamp is right :rolleyes: . Defense is a reaction to threat. Threat provokes fear. Fear is not bad—without fear we’d all be dead. Reaction to fear may be different, depending on a dog. The dog may either flee or defend himself to a bitter end. Fear does not always mean “cowardice”—I think “cowardice” is what bothers Don.
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Debbie High wrote 09/05/2003 11:32 PM Re: defense agiation with a muzzle for schH [Re: RobertR ] #36333 - 09/05/2003 11:32 PM
Debbie High Webboard User Reg: 01-03-2003 Posts: 704 Loc: Offline	Thank you Renee for your realistic and logical explanation!!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> Debbie
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Don B. Ackerson wrote 09/08/2003 11:21 AM Re: defense agiation with a muzzle for schH [Re: RobertR ] #36334 - 09/08/2003 11:21 AM
Don B. Ackerson Webboard User Reg: 07-12-2002 Posts: 1080 Loc: Offline	Won't you say that after the inital shock, fear or surprise of the first encounters/training sessions the the following responces would not be fear driven? So that the shift of drives would go straight to combat/fight drive or I know what to expect here I'm gonna take this guy out! Maybe a small bit of defense drive because of being startled then full steam ahead. (no matter how experinced you are you can still be caught by surprised and for an instance you are shocked/startled). In this short time period would that be the shift to defense drive and then to business/fight? And thinking like this would mean that all dogs have defense drive and could be put into avoidance they just have higher thresholds. Or is it true that some dogs would just fight until the end, no matter what. Which is more common in solid nerve dogs? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
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MattMoore wrote 09/08/2003 01:34 PM Re: defense agiation with a muzzle for schH [Re: RobertR ] #36335 - 09/08/2003 01:34 PM
MattMoore Webboard User Reg: 08-10-2001 Posts: 166 Loc: Offline	when talking about defense drive and defense training.. I always fall back to an analogy that I came up with a while back. Military/Special Forces training, makes use of fear in their training methodology, not to make the men afraid, but to teach them how to control/harness/channel their fears, and also to get beyond current fears, and learn to deal with stress on a whole 'nother level. Yes, when dealing with special forces types you are going to have those few that seem to fear absolutely nothing.. sometimes this is actually true, sometimes their thresholds are so hight, that it takes a near-death experience to actually trigger their fear-response. But by in large, the purpose of the training is to teach them how to deal with fears, and to operate w/in their actual fear. Changing their comfort zone, so to speak. this should be the goal of defensive training in dogs also. If the dog doesn't gain confidence/positive experiance from the training, it was not good defensive training. this is MHO -Matt
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Don B. Ackerson wrote 09/11/2003 10:40 AM Re: defense agiation with a muzzle for schH [Re: RobertR ] #36336 - 09/11/2003 10:40 AM
Don B. Ackerson Webboard User Reg: 07-12-2002 Posts: 1080 Loc: Offline	Matt I like your analogy, it explains what happens during training from a human prespective. The goals in both type training army's S.F. and dog PPT is to produce strong fearless warriors, that can cut it off and on when needed. Which of these two thoughts are true? "That all dogs have defense drive and could be put into avoidance they just have higher thresholds. " Or Is it ever true that some dogs would just fight until the end, no matter what. Is there a rare chance where you have a born fearless dog? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
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MattMoore wrote 09/11/2003 02:06 PM Re: defense agiation with a muzzle for schH [Re: RobertR ] #36337 - 09/11/2003 02:06 PM
MattMoore Webboard User Reg: 08-10-2001 Posts: 166 Loc: Offline	I would say both are true.. here is why: all dogs are born with defensive drive. The individual thresholds are unique. There may be rare individuals w/zero defense/fear, but I would surmise that this dog is also lacking in other capacities (read, mentaly challenged). Having said that, I also believe that the proper candidate, with the proper training, can and will fight until the end, even being aware of the pending result. -Matt
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Andre Fant wrote 09/12/2003 03:03 PM Re: defense agiation with a muzzle for schH [Re: RobertR ] #36338 - 09/12/2003 03:03 PM
Andre Fant Webboard User Reg: 08-24-2003 Posts: 10 Loc: Offline	Sorry my computer has been down with a virus but I am back now. Steve, I am not trying to start anything personal with you on this board, I have better things to do (such as work dogs) than to sit on here and fight. No I am not one of your ex client, but I do happen to be the Andre in Louisville, Ky that you have had conversations on the phone with. As far as you reporting me to Ed, I don't feel as if anything I said was offensive. Oh if your still wondering which Andre this is, this is Kelly's friend. Andre of Kentucky/Illinois
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Don B. Ackerson wrote 09/29/2003 12:56 PM Re: defense agiation with a muzzle for schH [Re: RobertR ] #36339 - 09/29/2003 12:56 PM
Don B. Ackerson Webboard User Reg: 07-12-2002 Posts: 1080 Loc: Offline	Matt wrote - There may be rare individuals w/zero defense/fear, but I would surmise that this dog is also lacking in other capacities (read, mentaly challenged). Having said that, I also believe that the proper candidate, with the proper training, can and will fight until the end, even being aware of the pending result. My question - Mentally challenged would that mean that he is crazy and possible an killer dog, or junk yard dog that you fill a water pot for and slide food to, because you the owner fear being bite. I've seen some of these crazed animals. Sad lonely life, but they don't take no prisoners. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Question 2 - Pending results? Does a dog that is really high in fight drive see defeat. Or is it like two human fighters you don't see it until you feel it? Like two fighters exchanging left hooks one staggaer and the other goes down. Each thinking they want to win, until pending doom.
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