Get the dog evaluated at 3 years old a good/honest trainer can tell you if she has what it takes. I really would get the Focus, Drive and Grip DVD so you have a clue as to what they are talking about, looking at and want.

Did your present trainer say that she could be a PP canidate? And if he did how did he evaluate her?

This can save you alot of money some people will say its there when its not and only after spending hundreds of dollars tell you that the best she could be is a threat bark/growl dog.

This is not common but it could happen if you don't get some pre-eductaion get the DVD then you will have some idea of how much time and effort it will take. Or if she can do it.

Don't waste your time and money. Your present trainer has he ever trained a PP dog or does he owns one? You have 7 weeks to decide get the DVD and it will help you know which way to go.

Quote from Kristen:
"It is MY understanding that what has been called a "sport dog" in Michael's post is a dog that simply lunges to the end of the leash and barks on command. This dog is not taught any kind of bitework - it's simply taught to put on a good show in order to be a deterrant"

Sorry, that's a totally incorrect assumption on your part. A sport dog is usually meant as a dog competing in SchH and doing bitework. They can look very impressive and would likely deter 99% of human aggression. The true PP dogs ( which are rare, rare, rare ) will engage and defeat, or at least slow down a determined attacker that is willing to engage the dog to get to you. The dog serves at worst as a "speed bump" , giving you time to escape or get/ use a weapon to stop the attacker. At best, the top-end PP dog will stop the attacker himself.
I can safely say that most people, even those intimately involved in dogs, have not seen a high-end PP dog.

Kristen, it would help you a lot to view some of the older threads and see what the terms that you are using actually mean to experienced trainers. You'll save yourself time and confusion by doing that.

Will, I HAVE read prior posts on this subject. And if you go back and read, Michael said:

 Quote:

If you want to "bond" with the dog and do training and have a dog that deters people, you would be much better off with a sport dog that is taught to bark on cue and act aggressively by command....The majority of people see that you give a dog the command to act aggressively and they will walk away or RUN away, or shit in their pants.

That's why I said what I did about what he said about sport dogs. From what HE said, a "sport dog" is just a dog that barks and growls and lunges to the end of the leash on command. Based on the quote above, is that not what he said? I'm not saying you're wrong, because you aren't; I'm simply stating why I said what I did. It was based on what Michael had said in his post. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Don, my current trainer said that he didn't know if she'd be a candidate for bitework or not, but that it could be a possibility. He said that I should start playing tug games with her and get her confidence level up before she can be evaluated. The reason for this (he said) is because from day one, I've discouraged her from using her mouth on people, from playing tug of war, etc. because I thought that by allowing her to do those things, she would end up being more difficult to train because she would see herself as dominant over me. She's my first dog, and in the beginning, doing bitework with her wasn't something that entered my mind. I just wanted a well-trained, well-behaved dog.

I don't know if he has trained PP dogs or not, but it is something that is offered. I think the furthest he's actually gone is training a bark-on-command dog. I'll have to ask him to be sure.


The only trainer that I KNOW trains PP dogs in my area is Panzer K9 . I'd like for Gypsy to get her Canine Good Citizen certificate, because Panzer's evaluation fee is cut in half if your dog has that title. (it's $50 without the CGC) Should I go ahead and have her evaluated by him now and see if he can tell me what, if anything, I need to be doing? Or should I just wait until we're finished with the advanced obedience and see if she can get her CGC first??

Kristen,
I see now how you were replying to someone else - it's always easier to follow a thread when you place the poster's name at the start to indicate that they're replying to a specific post ( like I started my posts here with "Kristen" ) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Boy, this has been interesting to me!! And just a little confusing. Okay, Schutzhund and personal protection are not the same thing. And when I said I wanted a dog for personal protection and planned to do Schutzhund training I was immediately informed that Schutzhund does not equal personal protection. But, and I am quoting here if (or paraphrasing anyway) 'a Schutzhund dog will deter 99% of human aggression' then maybe all I need to worry about is the Schutzhund training after all. In my mind, if a Schutzhund dog can deter 99% of human aggression, I am not going to worry about the 1% that it doesn't. Maybe all I need is Schutzhund training. Here is my question: Bottom line: Why does a Schutzhund dog bite? Because it sees the sleeve or because it believes it is protecting its handler / owner? What are the odds that a Schutzhund dog ( a good one, not just something pushed through to get a title, a real Schutzhund dog) would bite for real if the need were there? I need to figure this out, but if this is true that a Schutzhund dog would deter 99% of human aggression, then to me Schutzhund = Personal Protection. If it deters 99% of threats that is protecting me. Ninety-nine percent of the time is good enough for me. I mean, let's not split hairs here. (Or maybe I am just totally missing something.) Now that is nice to know. If I have missed something somebody let me know. It is my impression that if I train for Schutzhund the dog will at the very least have a powerful effect on the vast majority of people. Jennie

P.S. Read about how people without experience shouldn't post in areas they don't know so hope nothing here offends anybody. Wanted to read the Personal Protection threads to see if I could see any major differences between Schutzhund training and personal protection. Haven't read much yet but so far I don't. Isn't that video about Drive and Grip and Focus (I think it's called something like that) that was mentioned and advised as a starting point for personal protection also used in Schutzhund? I am just about sure it is. Unless there are two... Bye. Jennie

Jennie,
Since I'm the one that made the quote that you're interested in, let me explain my view on Protection Dogs a bit further.

A strong dog with good presence is much like carrying a firearm. If a perp knows that I have a gun, the vast majority of them will avoid trying to rob me, etc. They're looking for a victim, not an opponent - there's a big difference there. But a mentally ill dude may decided that an armed man is just the ticket in his crazy little brain.
So, by being armed, I deter most, but not all possible attackers - see the point?

A large dog that will bark aggressively on command or percieved threat acts much like you carrying a firearm - most bad guys will not want to tangle with the dog. The bad guy doesn't have any way of knowing whether he can chase the dog away to get to you, and most bad guys won't try the dog out to see if he bites. So literally in 99% of the cases, an aggressive display on the dog's part prevented an attack from going forward.

In personal protection, I strive to train dogs that will willing engage a bad guy not wearing a sleeve or bite suit, which act as keys to let a dog know that it's time to bite - and it's a lot harder to train a dog for this, plus many dogs ( including plenty of SchH titled dogs ) lack the ability to go civil on a bad guy. Finally, and this is the hardest part, a dog must have the extremely rare "fight drive" so that it is much less likely to be able to be driven off by a bad guy who is willing to be injured by your dog to get to you. That's the *real* test, and many, many people buy what they think is a personal protection dog when in fact, it isn't.

The above mentioned personal protection dog is the equivelent of you having to actually shoot the rare bad guy who sees your gun, but continues to advance on you. The 1% case, in other words.

Hope that clears up your question about my previous statement. And this is only *my* view, many personal protection dog trainer would dismiss a lot of what I said here, saying that it's too much work to train a dog to these standards. Those same trainers however, don't actually want their dogs truely tested by a client, since it looks bad when the dog runs away during the test. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Thanks. I get it. And I don't think I care about the 1%, though I have to say, if I change my mind about the 1%, I still think those Czech dogs are more likely to have what it takes to hold their ground and fight. But for now, the 1% is okay with me. That is an acceptable risk. And I can only do so much. I have only so much time. I have only so much money. And because I don't have the knowledge or experience I think it will be better to concentrate on one thing and learn it well than to be a jack-of-all-trades, master of none in dog training. So I am going to stick with Schutzhund. Just concentrate on that. That's more than enough to try to learn. Thanks much. Jennie

most bad guys won't try the dog out to see if he bites. So literally in 99% of the cases, an aggressive display on the dog's part prevented an attack from going forward.
Well Said Will and so true...just having a barking dog in the house keeps the robbers from robbing your house...most bad guys just want a easy target...the 1 percent that you were talking about ..if they want to get you they will find a way to do whatever they want no matter what your dog is...but if your walking down the street and they see yourself with a dog...they will walk away and find someone else...

Hi,

I am surprised and also confused with one of the things that you have mentioned. It is about letting the dog to win the tug-o war all the time. I learned differently. What I do with my dog is to let him retain the rope (or something he can pull when playing) one third 0r one fourth of total trials. For the rest I tell him to stop and he releases the stuff. I am not an expert but in this excersize it seems more logical to me that dog should release the rope upon command. What do you think?

Hi Will:
Just started reading this thread- interesting! Since you believe true protection dogs with fight drive are rare (and I have no idea, since I don't work my dogs in that), why are there so many k9's working for police, and seemingly doing a great job? Are they truly protecting their human partner, or are they more like SchH dogs, who do this for fun? So many police k9's take bullets, and still keep going, and have lots of heart, I would think that it isn't all just a game to them.
One other question, when you do PP training with a dog on a "perp" that has no sleeve or suit on, how do you know that they will bite, and stay engaged?

Julie