once the dog left the ground, he could not create any more force so the only factors would be mass and speed. Au contraire. The dog most certainly will create force... once he bites. The bite is that which acts on the dog's body (that is, accelerating it negativly), and the human's body (accelerating it positivly). Force hinges on changes in velocity.

If he was jumping into the person, prior to all feet leaving the ground the dog could also be accelerating so there could be a force generated different from that of momentum. Well, theoretically...sure. But a dog isn't a running back. He isn't gonna try to keep his feet moving against the run stopper. Once he has the bite, he's already in the end-zone so to speak...right? Even if he tried, we're talking about a dog which, more often than not, has already reached terminal velocity well before the bite.

Now, I meant to clarify this point. The total amount of force being generated (upon impact) would be the same as if he were airborne (assuming all else was equal)...the only difference is where the force is *applied*. The force of an airborne dog is concentrated on the bite (teeth and flesh). The force of a decelerating dog on the ground is spread out over 4 feet too (plus possible volitional deceleration).

Originally posted by VanCamp, Robert:
OK, I like Rotts, I'd own one if I had the kennel space, but I have to object to the comment about hard hitting dogs.

The American BullDog can hit pretty damn hard (my best friend has one in training for NVBK), the Rottweiler can hit pretty damn hard, but I have never caught a harder hitting dog than the GSD. Sorry guys, there are no harder hitting dogs. Second is the Malinois. . .no question.

It is a matter of genetics. Hard hits don't necessarily mean better fighting dogs, but that first strike power chest-level flying hit of the shepherd breeds is unmatched. Years and years and years of Schutzhund breeding for exactly that one defining moment in the courage test makes for a very hard hitting dog. Now whilst we can get into this for day after day and quote examples to back up each of our points, I simply cannot agree with this statement at all. I do work many varying breeds and have worked great examples of each. I find that there are more hard hitting GSD and Malinois due to the numbers being bred for work etc but in comparison to a top quality working Rott in impact power they cannot match up.

If you get very good working examples of these breeds I cannot agree that the GSD, Mal type dogs can match a Rott for power. If the dog does not slow before impact and is carrying similar speed (the GSD will be just ahead in this regard)then the weight of the dog then matters and the Rott has it.

I have worked many, many of every varying breed and I have been put on my Ass many times by both GSD's and Rotts (never had a Mal knock me over they are just too lite). But never have I been hit as hard as I have by the top notch working Rotts.

I know that this is not a debate anyone can win, we all have our preferences. Like I have said before if I wanted a Police Service dog give me a GSD but if I have to stand behind a dog that has to take someone out first strike give me a Rott. Someone used a Gun analogy before. For me the GSD is a 9mm, very versitle and all over a very impressive weapon, but the Rott is the Shotgun. It has the power.

Mick.

1. I don't smoke crack <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
2. That info on the jaw is simple, I've known two guys that were older special forces.
3. Both said it could be done by holding a hand in it's mouth and forcing the lower part down.
4. They both said they were told any dog with a jaw like the ones I mentioned, it could not be done by a hand.
5. I've never seen this.
6. I have however heard several stories of members talking about dog deaths from suspects while on pursuit, GSD, Dobermann, usually broken necks. Those guys were just tough criminals, not even trained to take on that sort of thing.

1. Now breaking a jaw on a Shepherd that was bite. trained and had the top genetics might be different.
2. Obviously the jaw is much stronger.
3. Main point is, you can find advantages with many different protection breeds.
4. I heard once in a news article a cop had to shoot a Rott four times with a .40 caliber to take it out.
5. Pain is pain a top Malinois or GSD would not have trouble defending itself. I just think sometimes you can't argue on some things.

You gotta love these biased, subjective, debates. LOL In the real world the high flying hard hitters are not always the manstoppers. In fact my experience has been that the more street wise, seasoned dogs practicly stop flying through the air before they make a bite. They've been juked and duped and actually set up like a linebacker. I'm referring to PSD's that have seen real action.

On a side note my first real working dog in the mid eighties was a male Rott. A real bruizer. In a bite suit you didn't have a chance. Felt like he was going to throw you on the ground and have his way with you. If you went to the ground you could forget about getting up. Great dog to put on ususpecting decoys.

I think that's true too.
1. The Rott is not my favorite breed.
2. I perfer Malinois, Dobs, GSDs
3. If I had to manipulate the body of a dog attacking me though, I just don't know if I could do it with a Rott or a larger type breed as easy.
4. On the hits, that's different. LT always hit harder than Reggie White, simply because of Speed.
5. Those breeds I mention the Malinois and GSD would always be top choices in Police work because of trainability, etc. And you won't find any cat burglar trying wrestle with one.

The question was why people like Rotts for protection work. I have owned 4 GSDs and 1 Rott. This particular Rott was one of my favorite dogs.
I agree with everything positive that has been said about Rotts,I think they are great for "close" protection work and are more intimidatng than GSDs or Mals. Yet I will always prefer GSDs.
Why? because IMO they seem to have more intuitive empathy/rapport with us humans. I always got the feeling the Rott was doing the protection work because HE liked it and it protected me.
The GSDs wanted to protect ME and they liked the work.

 Quote:

If the dog does not slow before impact and is carrying similar speed (the GSD will be just ahead in this regard)then the weight of the dog then matters and the Rott has it.

Eggs Ackley. If the respective velocities are the same, then the more massive "object" will carry with it greater momentum. The question simply boils down to this: Does this dog can make up for it's relative lack of mass with greater velocity? Or, conversly, it's relative lack of velocity with mass?

A 40 kg Rott running at 10 meters per second yields 400 units of Momentum. A 20 Kilogram Malinois better run at 20 meters per second to make up for it. Or however fast dogs run in real life. I don't know.

But, the more I think about this, it's certainly not the whole story. Sure, a 40 pound dog can knock someone down...but he (the guy) can also get back up and hobble around with it. A 100 pound dog might lack the ______ (excitement...I dunno) of getting air, but the guy certainly isn't going anywhere (not only must he over-come the inertia of a great mass, but a very muscular, psychologically intimidating, and aggressive mass). And any 100 pound dog can outrun any man...I think? So speed is really kind of a moot point.

And doesn't it matter more what happens to the guy in the seconds (minutes?) after the initial impact? Please tell me, because I don't know.

But as far as I can tell, GSDs would certainly seem to bring a little bit of both...generally.

As for "power"that's kind of muddles the issue. Strictly speaking it's the rate at which work is performed. Though, Rotts do pull those cute little wagons don't they? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Regarding bullet analogies...uhh...whatever dog is best is the .45 ACP. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

 Quote:

Originally posted by VanCamp, Robert:
Break a bite trained dog's jaw? I'm not the one smokin' crack bro.

I don't care what breed it is, that is the business end of the dog. I don't think someone is breaking a dog's jaw with his bare hands.

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You gots to have some big ones to go through that training session. Maybe it happened on a fluke a few times, but I doubt that the technique has been perfected.

In Brad's defense, however, I took a class one time as a law enforcement officer that had a period of instruction concerning defense against dog attacks. At the time, it was in vogue for the crackheads to have nasty street dogs with them. I do remember the technique of dislocating the jaw being taught. HATE to try it with a pit or rott or any other molossar-type. they also taught that the dogs are a little like alligators, in that (I don't have any idea about the scientific terms) the bite pressure and jaw strength is all a compression force, the bite, and that adduction force, opening the jaws, is very weak, so that if you could possibly clamp down during the bite, the chances or rebite/counter is much less. That's about all I can remember. Glad I didn't get to try it out <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

OK, enough tom foolery.

We crept past the Stupid Police a long time ago, it's time to go our seperate ways before we bring all the heat down and everybody gets busted for being a bunch of dumbasses.

Myself included, of course.

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