Mike, you have a mean streek my friend, I like that.

 Quote:

Originally posted by VanCamp:
Mike, you have a mean streek my friend, I like that.

you thought that was mean??? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
I was trying to put it as nicely as I could <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

wait til you see someone piss me off, then the mean streak comes out <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

That is a good question and I guess it would vary from person to person. My view at least would be a dog that could adapt to any situation. I have a male right now that is a V rated in Schutzhund, a narcotics dog, and has enough aggression to be a patrol dog. He has drive, and is CALM. This is a dog that could be used about anywhere and for anything. He is not a hard, hard tempermented dog either, but can take pressure and not get upset if someone steps on him . HE is a good all around dog. He is in my view the best all around dog that I have had, that is naturally like how he is. You may find better dogs in certain area's of work, but not many that are as well rounded, if that makes sense.
It is my feeling though that most great police service dogs, are not going to make a good blind dog. To think that this could be accomplished on a large scale would be mis-leading to say the least. As the woman that worked with blind dogs said, some dogs in thier program did not make it, and were better suited for Police Service. This is a logical approach, and a realistic one. Not every dog can cut every aspect of work that we require them to do. Some have inherited more of one drive, or some were exposed or seen things as pups diffrently. Each dog is diffrent. There is a huge diffrence between a guide dog, and a patrol dog in temrs of thier training and purpose in life.

LOL, I can't believe there's not 5 pages on here by now man . . . I'm surprised. I guess because of the holiday.
One a serious note though the ideal GSD in temperament is probably what the Dutch Shepherd is today. Guy Powell is probably one of the most knowledge people around and I remember him saying once that since his wife and him have so many, they act exactly how the GSDs behave, or I should say used to. He said the GSD had their form of fire back when he was in Vietnam. I'm sure there are some out there now, but I guess I mean on a much steadier basis than what you see today.

Since I haven't been around any of these dogs and I have zero experience I can't say, but with seeing as many of the two breeds as he has I would think it's accurate. So after hearing this I would think the temperament of a Dutch Shepherd would be exactly the traits desired in today's GSD. Now I may be mistaking so don't quote me but I think he feels the Malinois is TOTALLY different, in temperament, and everything. He likes them just the way they are. I guess it would be possible to consider them for someone that wants to go a step up on instensity. Main point being though is that from hearing all this I would think however the Dutch Shepherd performs and functions is the ideal. During the 60s the GSD was very much the ideal dog I think, and what he was saying was that's how the Dutch Shepherds compare to them, old school GSD or a really good GSD now. So that's about how tough they should be I would assume.
I've been partying this evening so if I wrote something screwed up relax, I'll fix it later. lol

Richard Cannon - Thank you for your post. I am 100% in agreement with you. You said exactly what I was trying to say all along but so much more succinctly.

Well, I wanted to be part of a serious GSD forum so I can't get all huffy when people ridicule my viewpoints - but it's so hard to understand why most of you don't accept that there are people (a minority, I hope) involved in the working dog scene who are producing so called working dogs with completely undesirable temperaments! And YES there are even more involved in the show scene who are producing undesirable conformation - that one has been discussed to death and is accepted as being the case.

To clarify:
When I mentioned hard dogs in the context of aggression and unsuitability for work - I meant "handler hard and rank dogs". I agree that a working dog has to have hardness.

When I said "the BEST police service dogs" I didn't mean the meanest, most serious, with the most fight drive - I meant the most versitile. A PSD has to also be solid around the public in any kind of situation. This doesn't mean that in some areas / situations a mean, serious dog with high fight drive isn't required - quite the contrary!

Michael Taylor - the dog you describe is a type of dog I would like to use in my breeding program.

I agree, a great PSD would not make a GREAT blind-dog but he should be able to do the work if required and given the training.

Schnauzergirl - I wasn't actually meaning that here in the UK the police want their dogs to actually work a dual purpose and lead the blind in their spare time (who's bending words now?)

I just think it is so sad that the police around here have begun to turn to the Mal because so many UK GSDs are failing their programs. Granted half of this is due to their selection tecniques and training abilities. I also said I believe their flirtation won't last

Near to me in Wales there is a GSD breeder who has a website called "Police dogs R Us" :rolleyes: They claim to be supplying the police and armed services. There are no pedigrees or qualifications on their dogs and yet they claim to supply ready trained dogs for PSD programs. There seems to be no breeding philosophy at all. This sort of thing is also why the police are finding that their GSDs are not making the grade and this is the sort of thing that makes me <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> .

About the Wales people. This is exaclty the tye of experience I had. No papered dogs, that somewhat hit a sleeve, and could find atowel thatt was scented to a degtee, but no training structure, and these dogs were suppose to be trained and almost ready for the street. It was a shame.

Want a guide dog, find a lab. Want something that can get your back, get a Rot, Gsd, etc. How many 345 pound wide recievers are there? Form follows function and the opposite is also true. Universal my a..,1800+ can't agree, how is anyone person gonna bring the whole thing together. Is flyball, frisbee and agility also work? Don't think so. Sch was established by Cpt. Max to evaluate his dogs, there was no requirement to "cross at the green and not in between". Same can be said for the hair brain that thinks a dog should tolerate self same idiot opening an umbrella 2 cm from its nose. Crap!!! Extremes are the result of any human influence in animal husbandry. Thousands of examples exist....mini horses,pot belly pigs, etc, none of which are particularly advantagous to its general gene pool. If I want to have an extreme working dog, so be it, why must my dog(s) or ideals for same come under fire or the restrictions of those who care not to do the same. I PROMISE, I will not interfere with the conformation crowd and thier "contribution" to the breed as it stands now. Thus endeth the sermon. G.

But Gordon......

The intention was an all around dog. The point is that the chacteristics that make a good "bite" dog and a good guide dog are the same. The issue in the temperament is the handler hard and rank dogs. These things are not required for good bite work. SchH was never intended as end point in itself. It was a set along the way. The intention was that the dogs would then move on to a job. Either herding or doing bite work or something else. The problems have come about as SchH is seen as an end all. If you take a good thing and don't use it for it's intended purpose it is likely to create problems or have problems. And even the SchH folks comment that the test isn't what it used to be. This is a big part of the reason that the other dog sports are picking up steam, people want a better test for how they use their dogs.

I can see what your saying Rich. I think the simple fact of that alone was why the became so incredibly popular. I will say though that in today's society the same dog that might have been able to be a dog for the blind couldn't perform that task in 21st century society. It could, but legally I doubt it would.

I do think your right, the extreme popularity for this breed was always because of it's ability to change it's personality in so many types of situations, (Mr Mom one moment & Sargent Rock the next.) I just don't know though today if that can be possible again or did that fact alone lead to diminishing the breed to begin with. Of course, the main thing that brought this dog down was like any other, the massive TV adverstising IMO. I hear that so much when the conversation is about the decline of a breed. The Collie, Doberman, etc.

I can't say what should be, but I can't help but think for the majority of the GSD working dog community fully wants this breed as Hardcore as possible. I'm not saying that's the way it should be or not but I think that's what the majority of this type of community wants. Meaning to be as much like the Dutch dogs as possible.

Main point though or question is a versatile type GSD that could be a dog for the blind or police dog at the same time be possible in today's society? Back then perhaps it could. There were no massive lawsuits, extreme overcrowding in public, times were just so different in the late 19th century/early 20th century compared to today. Parents weren't so scared for their children like today. In our society parents want their kids to wear bicycle helmets, lol. Back then people didn't worry with what they do now. Times change, and there's no doubt in my mind that when the first GSDs were put forth they were probably so hardcore that most of the GSDs fans of today wouldn't go near them.

At least this thread is in the right place. I'd really be pissed off right now if it was in the working line GSD section. It just wouldn't belong.

I hope SaraBMK continues to pursue her breeding program and learns something about working drives and ability. Then maybe she won't think crossing show and pet lines to IMPROVE the GSD is such a good idea. Get to a Schutzhund club, or jump accross the drink and go to Germany and see some working dogs in the BSP. I think you may have your eyes opened. Every breeder of GSDs should at least know about AND HAVE EXPERIENCE with Schutzhund.

I do guarantee one thing, if most of the breeders of GSDs in that country are of similar ilk, then the Malinois will continue to be the dog of choice for the police. Inexpensive dogs with hella working ability and drive. Gee, I wonder why the cops over there like them better than their native GSDs and expensive imported GSDs??

Versatility is a much over-used word. You breed for the extreme working animal (*) and what is left over you can call versatile. They make great pets, assistance dogs, and agility dogs, whatever. . .

If you breed to the middle road to try to produce great police/military dogs, and a bunch of other crap, you won't get ANY great dogs. And you will still end up with nice pets that can do fun pet things and other non-aggressive work.

(* and that doesn't have to mean rank dogs either Richard!!)

Normally this conversation is about the disCRAPancy of conformation and the GSD, but this one is just plain about not understanding working temperament and drive.