Scott
If you could afford the best dog, fastest car, highest flying air plane, they still take the best handler, driver, pilot, to get the best results.

This is a really interesting debate for a new person like myself, who has not yet stepped on to a trial field. Yes, one should have the attitude that they're just going to go out there and do their best, and the hell with everyone else. What has been brought up is that there is a real lack of good decoys, and therefore it is sometimes necessary to buy a titled dog because it has been trained with better helpers than can be found here. That is what I was alluding to in my perhaps unclear posts....If people continue to buy dogs already titled and go on to high levels in the sport, and if the current people at the top of USA schutzhund continue to do the same, the market price for these dogs will continue to go up, and the base of knowledgeable helpers will continue to decrease in number. The amount of people knowledgeable enough to foundation train a dog and work as a good helper will diminish, and the average and mediocre helpers will charge even more money to people like myself who don't know any better.
Another question i have is, especially to Todd, who as a breeder of the highest quality working dogs is, when you see the results of schutzhund trials--whether they be club, regional, national, whatever in this country--doesn't it piss you off even a little that the majority of dogs doing well are from kennels outside this country, and are already trained and titled before they get here? as a breeder, don't you want YOUR bloodlines on the podium, or at the very least out on the field competing? Look at Ivan, who breeds, raises, trains and competes his own dogs: the people at the top national level competing against Ivan must be very very nervous now that he's won, because his skills as a complete trainer will only get better with time and more experience....whereas in a few years' time at the most, the people who bought their dogs already titled will have to go out and spend even MORE money for a better dog to compete with ivan...does this make sense?
And as people have pointed out, one goes through all the training and goes on to the field for the love of it, but overall it seems to me that it is damaging to the sport's development to encourage the buying of titled and or trained dogs....

SCOTT007- and therefore it is sometimes necessary to buy a titled dog because it has been trained with better helpers than can be found here. That is what I was alluding to in my perhaps unclear posts....If people continue to buy dogs already titled and go on to high levels in the sport, and if the current people at the top of USA schutzhund continue to do the same, the market price for these dogs will continue to go up, and the base of knowledgeable helpers will continue to decrease in number. The amount of people knowledgeable enough to foundation train a dog and work as a good helper will diminish, and the average and mediocre helpers will charge even more money to people like myself who don't know any better.

This is where your making an incorrect assumption. New helpers SHOULD learn on older, experienced dogs. Therefore, the potential quality of helper training in the US should actuially increase under the scenario you're describing.

I am glad you brought up Ivan, he has shown America what a good breeding/training program can accomplish. I do not know Ivan, and have only spoke with him a few times via e-mail, but the article in USA mag about him was very interesting. It has taken him the better part of 15-20 years (starting with a Collie) and living all over Europe and the US to get where he is today. He also bought and raised his foundation bitch from a puppy, but only after being in the sport for close to 10 yrs.

This is my point John. Ivan has been in dogs for years. One does not develope the skill to train without this period of time lapsing, in most cases.

With issue with training decoys is one that is faced in Germany as I have stated before from what I have been told. The way it was explained to me was that the young guys are easy to teach the mechanics of decoying work, but after that they think they know everything and push the young dogs too soon.

Finding good traininig decoys is a problem. This is an even bigger problem if you are starting a dog from a pup. I think though that the knwledge is out there, and it will only be a matter of time before we see more Ivan's out there. But remember, schutzhund is still young in the states. Skills take time to earn.

This is my point John. Ivan has been in dogs for years. One does not develope the skill to train without this period of time lapsing, in most cases.

The issue with training decoys is one that is faced in Germany as I have stated before from what I have been told. The way it was explained to me was that the young guys are easy to teach the mechanics of decoying work, but after that they think they know everything and push the young dogs too soon.

Finding good traininig decoys is a problem. This is an even bigger problem if you are starting a dog from a pup. I think though that the knwledge is out there, and it will only be a matter of time before we see more Ivan's out there. But remember, schutzhund is still young in the states. Skills take time to earn. ANd alot of teh dogs in the BSP were not trained by the handler from a pup, so this problem or situation is not only happening in America. It really depends on your goals.

I am glad that Karmen finally jumped on!

While I can appreciate the people that do import the trained dogs (and have to learn/try to learn the dogs sometimes before competing), I think the best part of the GSDC, etc is watching the HOT entries. A lot of people were watching Karmen and Bill McClure on the field competing at the GSDC, because these were dogs that they trained.

Another question i have is, especially to Todd, who as a breeder of the highest quality working dogs is, when you see the results of schutzhund trials--whether they be club, regional, national, whatever in this country--doesn't it piss you off even a little that the majority of dogs doing well are from kennels outside this country, and are already trained and titled before they get here? as a breeder, don't you want YOUR bloodlines on the podium, or at the very least out on the field competing? Here is the irony. The only way people are going to see my dogs and their quality is to have my imported dogs compete. Yes, I can raise a puppy and compete him(Alex would be a good example), but he is also an import. Trained here yes. An import none the less. I know my dogs eventually will be on the podiums(dogs of my breedings). Is that cocky. I don't think so. I know where I am headed. So in order to get my dogs(breedings) on the podium I have to compete with my import. Then people will say I want a puppy out of so-and-so. Then we all win. So if you look at it in a different light, the buying of imports and competeing can actually help the US puppy market because people can see the quality out there.

I know talking in circles.

Todd,
I hadn't thought of it like that; i guess it really is a circular argument. I guess what i'm really getting at here is, you as a breeder have to compete with your imports and get results, to raise interest in the future puppies. but my question is how many people are really interested in buying a puppy, raising and training it and competing with it, when they can just go out and buy an already titled dog and look good on the trial field? the interest and the desire to raise and train a puppy has to be there in the first place, and from what i've seen in my limited experience of visiting a few clubs and reading magazines and seeing tapes is that that interest and desire just isn't there, but the money sure is.
My whole point of this post from the beginning was to ask whether there is a way to generate enough interest in raising and training dogs in schutzhund entirely in america...or is this even a worthwhile goal if the majority of people are generally happy with imported titled dogs?

So if you look at it in a different light, the buying of imports and competeing can actually help the US puppy market because people can see the quality out there. As a newcomer to Schutzhund, perhaps you can shed light on something that puzzles me...?

That the sport is relatively new to the US I understand. But it has been here through what would be several generations of dogs. Why then are breeders still importing? Why haven't US kennels developed their own line of competition dogs? Is it an issue of gene pool, or is it just easier to import quality? (assuming that one has the conveted contacts to get quality dogs...)