As a helper all you have to do is remember is not to move the sleeve once you are in position ,not look the dog in the eyes and be quite. It also helps to have a healthy back.

Hey Jim, when you did this just what was the handler doing the whole time.Did the hanlder stay at a distance or was the handler on the end of a six foot lead waiting for the signs of the dog ouuting on its own? Who was responsible for determining when the dog was about to out,being how the helper is ignoring the dog with no eye contact.Ill go back and read it again but while Im here were you ever giving the dog a quick rebite and slipping the sleeve or is it always the fatigue thing.Even after the dog is outing on command are you immediately giving the rbite and slipping it?Or is that something you never do again?Thanks

We had a six foot lead on him but when the dog gets on the bite the handler drops the lead and moves away out of sight but not far though. With our dog we could tell he was getting tired . He would start to whine and we could see his grip loosening. We had others around watching. When it looked like he was about to release the handler would move back in grab the lead . Handler would give the out command just as the dog released on his own ,giving no physical correction and call the dog back to him and make him sit. The new agitator would then move in quickly and we would send the dog into bite and start the process over again. This was about 5 years ago but I only remember doing 3 bites a day because it tired the dog out.

Also on the third bite we didn't end with a rebite just lots of praise and was rewarded with a tug. We never slipped the sleeve as a reward he always had to out clean after he got the picture. Towards the end of this training method it was just sending him on the bite giving him the out command.If he outed and he came into a sit at the handlers side we sent him in for another bite quickly. After he was outing consistantly we went back to our usual ways of controlling his bitework. We also laid off on doing training (street)scenerios that ended with a bite as much. This dog proved he could make contact with a real suspect no problem, so we set up street scenerios that were difficult where he had to over come obstacles, search long , etc. but we didn't end with a bite as much, actually hardly ever. We did more searches with him in muzzle and finding suspects that he couldn't get to high hides,behind doors ,etc.)

I have not read the whole thread (it is too long) so forgive me if this has been covered.

It seems to me that the dog does not know the out and thus using compulsion to gain the responce alone will, if not used consistantly and strong enough, (which may be very high with such a strong dog) will force the dog to actually fight for the sleeve harder. With such a hard dog we can keep making the dog go harder and harder. When such a dog comes along I will go back and teach the "out" and then compell the dog that it must do it. Compelling the dog to out when it does not know it if not done correctly will only teach the dog to escape the compulsion rather than avoiding it and thus will always mean the dog will always require the equipment to out it.

Too teach the out I will have the helper were two sleeve and having the dog go sleeve too sleeve. To do this you have the dog bite once and then slip the sleeve holding onto the sleeve by the top end. Then have the handler command "out" or what ever he is using, whilst the helper places the other sleeve right above the dogs head. The dog will see that the sleeve it has, has no use, but the the sleeve with the helper is still active and spit the sleeve to go after the other.

Once you have done this a few times you can start to move further back from the dog and start slipping the sleeve and having him chase the other one. Then have the dog stop too go into a hold and bark. Soon enough the dog will be outing upon command looking for to start the fight again.

I would also add to this that I far prefer once the dog knows the start of the out that you use negative re-enfocement rather than positive punishment thus teaching the dog that the speed of the out is important. I will use an E-collar or pinch but prefer a "cable collar" (my term) which is like a slip chain but made out of cable. I will apply pressure as soon as the command is given (remember the dog already knows how to out, we are simply teaching it that it must) and it is released as soon as the dog outs. In the early stages I will move and give another bite as soon as the dog has outed. Then building up over time.

Mick.

Teaching the out to this type of dog is in fact a simple exercise that when done correctly eliminates a majority of the stess involved in teaching a high end fighter to cease the bite for a moment.

The method takes all of about 5 min to introduce and will last a lifetime if applied on a regular basis in training.

Two collars on the dog. The first being a very strong and wide leather collar whose leash is held close by the decoy.

The second collar is a choke or prong for the handler.

On the out command by the handler the decoy chokes up on his/her leash so that the dog cannot release. Yep can not release.

The handler goes into a series of above average corrections repeating the out command as many times as the handler corrects.

After say 8-10 corrections with the dog forced to stay on the bite the dog when the pressure from the decoy is released the dog will spit the suit, sleeve or what have you out of it's mouth so fast you will be amazed at the clarity in the dogs decision to let go after all the problems associasted with this type of behaviour.

It is very important to reward the out with another bite.

A big plus with the method that I have described is that the handler will not have to yell all that loud for the dog to hear the command as the dog is now listening for that command and responds on time.

Jerry
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Jerry, is that like using some sort of opposition reflex in the dog?

Jerry,

It sounds like the "normal" way to correct the out. Maybe I am not seeing this but how does choking the dog make him hold it?

In the past I have used something like this method only to find it works on some dogs and not all dogs. Back then I ended up choking the dog out to get him to release. It was the reson I looked for another method.

Again maybe I am not seeing this as explained. Can you offer more please.

Thanks,
Dennis

It is a form of opposition reflex. He's not describing traditional "choking off" methods. He's saying the helper pulls the dog INTO the sleeve and keeps him there, so the dog has the feeling that the sleeve is being shoved down his throat and he can't get away from it. Many dogs will back away from anything that is shoved INTO them, particularly if you hold them there so they can't avoid. Then, when given the chance, they'll jump at the opportunity to back off from it.

It doesn't work for all dogs however. The Troll vh Melinda daughter in our club thought it was delightful!

Bingo, thanks for the answer Lee. Opposition reflex. . .