Only other problem I saw with Bravo - all the bones are ground, so I'd have to dig up raw bones as well to keep his teeth clean. A local pet store has raw bison bones and such, but at $5+ a bone, and the size would only last my guy a day.

I would not agree that food allergies are less likely than any other allergy, especially for the severely allergic dog, and I wouldn't agree that dogs are more likely to have allergies to meats and grains over anything else. It is because of this attitude that people only try to change the main meat ingredients and cut out carbs when they are trying to find out what their dog is allergic to and then when that fails, they say their dog doesn't have food allergies when, in fact, they do.

Anita, if you really feel your dog has chicken allergies, go ahead and cut out all chicken from his diet. If this was the problem, you are done. If you really want to find out what your dog is reacting to, you have got to switch to a totally new, novel protein, that your dog has never, ever touched, and cut out all other foods and supplements.

Another good idea for a novel protein is goat. Hare Today has a great whole ground goat product. Don't worry about feeding only ground food, your dog's teeth can wait for whole bones until after you find out what he can and can't eat.

 Quote: AnitaGard

Only other problem I saw with Bravo - all the bones are ground, so I'd have to dig up raw bones as well to keep his teeth clean.

Anita, they have whole bones too! I buy the bags of venison and also the buffalo bones. Both keep him occupied for quite a while. He loves them!! The venison as you might expect are a little smaller. My dog doesn't stay occupied for very long w/anything but these bones keep him occupied for well over 1/2 hour!!

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

Judy,

Wow! I admit that I assumed there would be a list of ingredients (not elimination diet material), but when I clicked on, for example, ostrich, I saw this ingredient list:

Antibiotic-free ostrich necks, antibiotic-free ostrich meat, antibiotic-free ostrich livers

That's it.

Elk is:

Ground elk with elk bone, elk hearts, elk livers, elk kidneys.

I am VERY impressed at the suitability of these recipes for elimination diets.

(I'm impressed with the opportunity for easy variety for a regular raw diet, too.)

Connie, how could you doubt me ??? After all the time, money and effort I've expended to figure out Gunnar's allergies !!!

Trust me...I know not to use and/or recommend a food source with more than 1 ingredient .

 Quote: Elaine Matthys

I would not agree that food allergies are less likely than any other allergy, especially for the severely allergic dog, and I wouldn't agree that dogs are more likely to have allergies to meats and grains over anything else. It is because of this attitude that people only try to change the main meat ingredients and cut out carbs when they are trying to find out what their dog is allergic to and then when that fails, they say their dog doesn't have food allergies when, in fact, they do.

Yes, all the ingredients have to be novel. Good point.

Of course, I understand that our experiences dictate what we know.

I have had food-allergic dogs, too, and it's rough.

But food allergens are usually proteins. This isn't something I just think or have observed, but it is something that science -- so far -- says. (Believe me, I know that this may turn out to be incorrect, but so far...... )

The World Small Animal Veterinary Association World Congress, in both 2001 and 2006, precede their allergy presentations with these openers:

Etiology

QUOTE: Food allergy is defined as an immunologically based reaction to food. In most clinical cases, the exact etiology is not well understood. Immunologic mechanisms of types I-IV have been hypothesized. In contrast, food intolerance is a general term describing any adverse reaction to food that does not have an immunologic basis ..... Most food allergens are proteins; intolerance can, of course, be to wider-ranging triggers. END

So I think maybe we are just using different terms.

And from the new Merck Manual:

QUOTE: Food allergy is ~10% as common as atopy in dogs. END

Merck goes on to say, in 100% agreement with your suggestions:
QUOTE: There is no reliable diagnostic test other than a strict food elimination diet. Serologic testing and intradermal testing for food allergens have proved unreliable. The ideal food elimination diet should be balanced and nutritionally complete and not contain any ingredients that have been fed previously to the animal. Many diets contain novel protein or carbohydrate sources (eg, lamb and rice). However, it is often misunderstood that if any previously fed ingredient is present in the elimination diet, the animal may be allergic to the novel ingredient and the diet trial will be a failure. The key point in any food elimination diet trial is that only novel food ingredients can be fed. END

Good points, Elaine. Thank you.

Mea culpa, Judy!

You still seem to be stuck on the idea that allergies have to be to proteins. Is the severely peanut allergic person who goes into anaphalatic shock from just the smell of them being exposed to proteins? Maybe, it would help you to think of food allergies and food sensitivities together. They both cause many of the same problems and if dogs have one, they usually have both.

The fact that the Merck manual states that food allergies comprise only 10% of allergies, doesn't mean much as the way that vets have been determining food allergies so far is pretty worthless, so the 10% is a vastly understated number.

If you would really like to learn about food allergies and how to deal with them from a scientific point of view, check out the k9kitchen site. It's the only site out there that actually deals in facts and numbers and not hearsay.

 Quote: Elaine Matthys

it would help you to think of food allergies and food sensitivities together. They both cause many of the same problems and if dogs have one, they usually have both.

That's why I said perhaps we were using different terms.

 Quote: Elaine Matthys

The fact that the Merck manual states that food allergies comprise only 10% of allergies, doesn't mean much as the way that vets have been determining food allergies so far is pretty worthless, so the 10% is a vastly understated number.

That statement was followed by what I thought was a perfect explanation of an elimination diet.

 Quote: Elaine Matthys

If you would really like to learn about food allergies and how to deal with them from a scientific point of view, check out the k9kitchen site. It's the only site out there that actually deals in facts and numbers and not hearsay.

Well, with a couple hundred hours of classes (so far) under my belt, I'm working on it.

I'm open, though. Can you link me? The only K-9 Kitchen sites I saw sell pet food base mix and supplements, or the Segal book.