Jennifer asked;
"What is YOUR answer to the question Bob"?

Definately a pack issue!!
I'm not gonna take a bone from even the best trained dog in the world if I'm not a member of his/her pack!

Quote Jennifer Coulter. "I still think its a semantics agruement and can't believe I was sucked in".
I vaguely remember a similar sentiment from someone on another thread started by the original poster.


real nice job jack
Randy

 Quote: bob scott

I'm not gonna take a bone from even the best trained dog in the world if I'm not a member of his/her pack!

Haha, I just pictured you stealthily sneaking in to attempt something like that... what a thought

Randy: I meant that I can see how the "out", in some circumstances, can be more of a training/game matter than a strictly pack drive behaviour.

As Bob pointed out, dogs can easily be taught to "out" purely motivationally and have no issue doing this - even with strangers depending on the situation and depending on the dog's temperament - when it's within the context of a game.

My 10-month-old GSD pup does very nice outs and I've never used the slightest bit of compulsion on her (not even a voice correction).

Yes, she knows the game and the reward that comes with "outing": in her case a rebite followed by vigorous fighting.

However, rank certainly does come into play. A friend of mine offered to be the helper for my pup and play this game that she's been conditioned to play. At one point I asked for the aus and my pup spat out the item, excitedly waiting for the game to pick up again.
Unfortunately my friend didn't wait for me to kick the tug his way and tried to grab it from right under her. Her possessiveness suddenly kicked in and she nailed him on the hand, followed by some growling. Oops - we flipped her right back into prey and everything was fine after that.

She's a very friendly pup, not particularly dominant either, but she didn't tolerate a stranger trying to snatch the prey from her. She's fully conditioned to aus in exchange for a more exciting fight, but she switched drives in an instant and forgot all about the game.

She has NEVER aggressed on me when I go to take the prey from her. She will also spit out a bone on command, even though she knows that there will be no reward for "outing" food and even though she has never once received a correction for not "outing".

Why then would she "out" a bone for me when she would never do it for a stranger?

Pack drive.

Try "outing" a meaty bone from a leopard sometime. Even one that you've raised and conditioned from the time it was a baby. Let me know how that goes and we can discuss the relevance of pack drive in this situation

Edited by Yuko Blum (12/28/2007 10:27 PM)
Edit reason: ugh, grammar

 Quote: randy allen

Quote Jennifer Coulter. "I still think its a semantics agruement and can't believe I was sucked in".
I vaguely remember a similar sentiment from someone on another thread started by the original poster.


real nice job jack
Randy

The choke-chain thread? In which the O.P. changed POV every page of the thread?

 Quote: yuko blum

Try "outing" a meaty bone from a leopard sometime. Even one that you've raised and conditioned from the time it was a baby. Let me know how that goes

I would, but I seem to have misplaced my arms...

 Quote: benjamin colbert

Out is a training issue. If your dog isn't outing it isn't because he doesn't know who's boss its because either he doesn't know what you're asking in that particular circumstance or because because he hasn't been properly reinforced (i.e. not enough reinforcement, inconsistent reinforcement). Alpha rolling him, even behavioral lifestyle changes (crating, NILIF) is not going to fix a bad out if you are not properly training.

Bad outs are a training issue that is based on poor initial pack groundwork. What I've seen in my limited experience is without that base groundwork it is a uphill battle with any type of real advanced techniques. Sure you can get the dog to out by 'force' i.e. physical corrections but it doesn't repair the root of why the dog has a dirty out. For that you have to go back to the beginning pack drive groundwork time and time again.

 Quote: amber morgan

And pack drive and motivational obedience training are not mutually exclusive, btw. It seems like you're saying they are. They actually reinforce each other.

This is so true it hurts, but in this case the pack drive structure HAS to come first to make any meaningful headway. Once that happens then the real training starts.

 Quote: jennifer coulter

We all know you expect your dog to out on command as you have trained it and reinforced it as you say.

Do you expect your dog to listen to the "out" command from people who are not pack members?

There are many people who's dogs may out for their pack leaders/owners(those who have trained them), but not someone from outside the pack. Think police dog for an example.

You could say that they haven't been trained to out for strangers or you could say that they do not respect them as the authoritative pack leader. Pack leaders ARE trainers in the wild and otherwise. They reinforce and correct behaviors all the time.

You can't really get a dog to out anything from a non pack leader. My dog outs for people in my family. Even with my 4 year old she will out a ball for him time and time again. Though we had a (non family) 13 year old boy over with his mom for supper tonight and he wanted to play fetch with the dog. What ever this boy did she would not out for him it was a big game of keep away. If I gave her the out command she would then drop the ball and Tyler could pick up the ball and throw it for her. But without me supervising it would be a cold day in hell before she dropped that ball for him.

Yes but I see it as teaching the dog its the lowest member of the pack always in reguards to humans. As opposed to being only second to you or those of your choosing. The manner of training is irrelevent.
Your still teaching the dog his rank in the pack. Its the size of the pack your controling, nothing else.
Randy

PS. leopards aren't pack animals! Ha

Edited by randy allen (12/28/2007 10:35 PM)
Edit reason: PS.

 Quote: rick miller

 Quote: yuko blum

Try "outing" a meaty bone from a leopard sometime. Even one that you've raised and conditioned from the time it was a baby. Let me know how that goes

I would, but I seem to have misplaced my arms...

Sure Rick (you weenie!!)

Kidding, I would also let the leopard eat in peace.

To be honest I have no clue what point Ben is trying to make.
He keeps jumping from one thing to another and doesn't seem to be offering any kind of rebuttals to the arguments we come up with.

Maybe he just enjoys the drama... Oh well, I always enjoy a good OUT discussion so I couldn't care less if the OP is still hanging around or not. We can take over from here

 Quote: randy allen

Yes but I see it as teaching the dog its the lowest member of the pack always in reguards to humans. As opposed to being only second to you or those of your choosing. The manner of training is irrelevent.
Your still teaching the dog his rank in the pack. Its the size of the pack your controling, nothing else.
Randy

My dog can rank as high as she damn well pleases as long as it's lower than me and my other human family members! Lol.

I don't expect my dogs to be submissive to strangers. In fact, it's kinda fun watching my wee pup trying to dominate the helper when fighting on the tug She certainly was not corrected for biting the helper when he tried to grab the prey from her; it was a handler/helper mistake but I want to encourage her possessivness of the prey and her desire to fight and dominate to win it. Teaching her to submit and Out for any stranger would be completely counterproductive to our training.

If some stranger tried to order my dogs around I would tell him to stop harassing my dogs and would proceed to smack him upside the head if he didn't relent. I expect my dogs to answer to me and to my family, but that's it. I'll deal with everyone else myself

That was exactly the point I was trying make.



Leopards aren't pack animals,
don't bother the kittys food
Randy

Edited by randy allen (12/28/2007 10:47 PM)
Edit reason: getting late