Here is my $0.02. I am not an expert and have only managed the basic ob's with mine. But, my dog is a super excited, barky dog (Schipperke). She is 10 pounds.

You mentioned that she has growled at you when you put her off the couch.

Do you crate the dog? Have you ever? Does she sleep where she wants? Is she free fed? Does she have toys lying around at her disposal for whenever she wants?

I know this sounds a long way off from a dominant dog correction, but it would help to know where you are with her.

Does she bark at people? Or only cats and dogs and occasionally growls at you?

 Quote: nora ferrell

Here is my $0.02. I am not an expert and have only managed the basic ob's with mine. But, my dog is a super excited, barky dog (Schipperke). She is 10 pounds.

You mentioned that she has growled at you when you put her off the couch.

Do you crate the dog? Have you ever? Does she sleep where she wants? Is she free fed? Does she have toys lying around at her disposal for whenever she wants?

I know this sounds a long way off from a dominant dog correction, but it would help to know where you are with her.

Does she bark at people? Or only cats and dogs and occasionally growls at you?

Hi there, I do not crate her, and to be honest only made minimal attempts at using a crate, but i really prefer not to.

Yes, for the past year my dog has slept where she wanted, free fed, toys are all over, I have given in to her demands for affection, etc etc.

But in the past few weeks or so, I have REALLY been making an effort not to do these things. I only give her affection when I call her over, she does NOT sleep in the bed when I am there (although I'm sure that doesn't necessarily stop her when I am not around)

She is not allowed on the couch unless I invite her. I am no longer free feeding her. I will leave it out for about 15 mins, but lately she has been good about eating when I put it out, and if she doesn't finish it, then she doesn't finish it and I take the rest away. I know these are all important things to do, and i feel bad that it took me this long to start these kinds of "rules" but is it ever too late to start?

re: the crating - she is just such an anxious dog, that she seems to do WORSE when she is confined to spaces. I used a baby gate to gate her in many places, a small hallway, the kitchen (which is also very small), but she seems to have less anxiety when she is left alone not crated.

edit: I forgot to add: no she does not bark at people, she loves all people. She WILL bark at people who come over, and then leave, like she doesn't want them to leave (does this with me too), or I have also heard from a neighbor that when some guys were there replacing my dishwasher, she was pretty vocal at that time as well. however walking down the street, she does not bark at people.

I think you need to be more patient. You posted your previous thread about this same problem a few weeks ago (April 29). You've made groundwork changes in the past few weeks as well as you say above.

Behaviour changes can take time. Consistency from you will pay off, but you need to be consistent for longer than a few weeks. Keep at it with her both in your home and on walks, keep working on redirection through obedience in reactive situations out walking, and the changes will come. Start marker training and shaping exercises in the meantime to really get her used to training and strenthen the bond with you too. It will happen. I have a very aggressive dog (she thinks serious attacking is fun, she learnt to kill sucessfully before I adopted her) and while I can never trust her, I can work with her, and I can do it without choking her out. You can do this too, you just need to have the patience and consistency.

 Quote: jennifer mullen

Am I completely off? Aren't dominant dog collars supposed to be primarily used with hard, dominant, handler-aggressive dogs? Dogs that are potentially a threat to their handler?

Quote from Ed Frawley at http://leerburg.com/746.htm (which contains information -including feedback from people who have used DD collars - that I REALLY wish people would read before jumping to conclusions):

"This collar originally designed to be used on handler aggressive or dog aggressive dogs. Using a prong collar on these kinds of dogs often makes them hectic and more aggressive. Using a dominant dog collar correctly on the same dog takes drive and fight out of the dog".

I agree that Jenn needs to be doing more OB and groundwork with this dog, and my suggestion for dealing with the aggression towards other dogs is just that - a suggestion. Jenn must decide for herself how to proceed. But she expressed concern in a previous post that using a prong collar would make the dog even more hectic, and she specifically asked for input on DD collars. I haven't seen another post yet from anyone who has actually used one.

BTW I don't buy the "dog is only 12 lbs" line. Little dogs are no different from big dogs when it comes to training, and can be just as aggressive. The only dog that has even seriously bitten me was a 10 lb Pomeranian.

 Quote: sarah ward

I haven't seen another post yet from anyone who has actually used one. ...

You saw posts from me. I have certainly used DD collars. Others have too.

And yes, I read all of the DD page on LB (not for the first time) and I did not "jump to conclusions."

Under How to Use is this:
If you have an aggression problem you need to determine what level of correction to administer. With most dogs it only requires you to lift straight up on the leash and take up the slack in the collar. With these softer dogs they quickly learn that you have complete control over them.

With more aggressive dogs (on which other methods have failed) the handler should lift the dogs front feet off the ground for a few seconds until the dog settles down from his aggressive rage (see photo to left). This also shows the dog that you will not tolerate what he is doing.

The second paragraph, which describes your suggested method, leads to the pack structure program to be done first. The line (on which other methods have failed) is a link to this: http://leerburg.com/308.htm

My opinion is that the O.P. has not gone through the "other methods" suggested on the DD page. I would like the O.P. to follow the link to the Pack Structure program as indicated in the DD text.

My opinion differs from yours. Not because the dog weighs 12 pounds, or because I have not "actually used one," or because I had not read the product info, but because I think that the O.P. has not done the foundation work that needs to be done and that she is not describing a situation where choking out the dog is needed.

A differing opinion does not necessarily mean that the other person knows nothing about dominant dogs or DD collars or product info, or that they apply different rules to small dog training.

Excuse me???!!!

I beg to differ, I've used them.

Properly, I might add.
Randy

Here is the part you keep skipping in your thinking Sarah: "This collar originally designed to be used on handler aggressive or dog aggressive dogs."
For the most part the dogs Ed is talking about already HAVE the TRAINING behind them......The dogs ignore or attack the handler. They are DANGEROUS dogs. It is a last resort.
All others need not apply.

As Randy said (yet again). And as Connie said "because I think that the O.P. has not done the foundation work that needs to be done and that she is not describing a situation where choking out the dog is needed."

My point about the dog being 12lbs was not that a 12lb dog can't be aggressive, or have issues, but that I don't believe that choking out is required to gain control a dog of that size.

While it may be a 'quick fix', there are other more appropriate ways to work through this dog's issues.

Look, I unfortunately have experience with a very dog aggressive dog, and one that b/c of it's size, is harder to control than the dog in question on this thread. Size does matter in that regard. I have a dominant dog collar at home, and I've never used it, b/c I don't need to. And if I don't need to, the OP doesn't need to.

I also don't think there's anything to be gained with a pissing match over who handles the most aggressive dog (though, heh), b/c the bottom line is this dog's reactivity is a problem, and something the OP wants to fix and wants help with. But I firmly believe that in helping the OP we also MUST take into account what is best for the dog.

I just don't see how anything that's been going on with this dog and her owner that so far comes close to approaching the need of dominant dog collar. And frankly, I think it's irresponsible to be counselling for the use of one when very clearly groundwork and more training needs to be done, and needs to be done consistently for a period longer than 2 weeks.

The point is to NOT LET YOUR DOG GET TO THAT STAGE IN THE FIRST PLACE (not yelling, just emphasizing)where she/he zones out and doesn't listen
I can't imagine that a nicely timed correction with a prong collar for this little dog wouldn't help solve the issue.
A prong collar correction when she's already in the "zone" as I like to call it is not going to help and yes will just amp her up.

Plus, I think you should really be doing some more training on leash in the house without distractions. To say that you can get the dog to look at you for a couple blocks but only if there's no dogs or squirrels around tells me that she has not been proofed for distractions yet.

walk...then run.

oh, and i have to agree with everything that Randy's said.
Sounds like the dog is not totally seeing Jenn as the pack leader and is acting a little bratty because of it.

Jenn V. , don't take any of the posts here as shots at you or your relationship with your dog. We are all honestly trying to help you with your situation. Some are gruff, some not so much. But we are all here to help.

thanks all for the advice, i have been reading the free e-book on "establishing ground work" and trying these things with more effort. How long does it normally take for these things to start of settle in a dog's mind? obviously not 2 weeks, but I am wondering at what point, people started to see better results with their own dogs.

I would be glad to work more on leash with dog inside, except that we live in a small apartment. however there may be some areas around that i think we could work in without distraction. you all seem to have good advice, and perhaps it's not best for us to use the dd collar yet.


"The point is to NOT LET YOUR DOG GET TO THAT STAGE IN THE FIRST PLACE (not yelling, just emphasizing)where she/he zones out and doesn't listen"

I understand this totally, but sometimes it's easier said than done, as in times where she will sense a trigger far before i see/hear it, and things like that.

and my dog may be only 12 pounds, but she is intense, and very strong for her size, and has got has huge voice for a tiny little body!

 Quote: jenn verrier

thanks all for the advice, i have been reading the free e-book on "establishing ground work" and trying these things with more effort. How long does it normally take for these things to start of settle in a dog's mind? obviously not 2 weeks, but I am wondering at what point, people started to see better results with their own dogs.

I think it depends on the dog (and the owner and what they do). In my experience with a dog that's part terrier, they can be strong and somewhat bloody-minded when they decide to, as well.

It goes back and forth too - I'm thinking about the redirection through obedience stuff for reactivity - it took a few months, I would say, to really start to take, and even then, there are some days where Teagan just doesn't want to cooperate, or the days where we see so many temptations to her that it's a lot for her to handle.

Which is to say, dealing with behavioural stuff is a process