Will has more inside info than any of us. Not even counting the seven years as an LEO, it takes two years of continuous training to become SF and then "Special Forces are either on a real world mission or training for one". If Will says this was bad, that's good enough for me.

I happen to have first hand experience with being the wrong target of a search, the result of which quite literally ruined my life for several years. I'm only willing to cut LEOs so-much slack.

 Quote: Melissa Thom

Dark house, barking dog in what we're assuming was a crate (didn't see a crated dog on video)

Dark house or not, I was raised to never pull the trigger unless I KNEW FOR SURE what was on the other end of the gun.

You don't open fire in a house at the noise of a barking dog.

This is just a small point of the whole situation.

There are better ways to fight the war on drugs. Nothing about this whole situation is even close.

Melissa,
I think you're missing the larger point. Who would think it justifiable to go busting into the home for pot? Of any quantity. What thinking person can't come up with one of several easier, safer ways to arrest a pot dealer than busting down doors at night when it's very likely a persons family is sure to be around to add to the confusion?
What justifies such a use of force? Anything in this guys past suggest warranting it?
They do any surveillance before hand? I doubt it, if they had they'd known who and how many others were in the house.
Why such heavy handed tactics when it would have been far easier, safer and likely, less confusion to just arrest him in the morning when he walked out of the house?

I don't care if he had a boat load of pot in the house. Why kick down doors at night to get to it?
As his guy posed no immediate danger to anyone, it sounds more like we had an out of control group that got bored one slow night in Feb.
What's their excuse?
The dog ate my homework.

 Quote: melissa thom

 Quote: scott garrett

I'll turn your argument around. What if there hadn't been any marijuana on the premises and this was completely bad info provided by a neighbor from hell? Would you still think "oh, well, it's his fault"? What if a child had been killed as a result of poor choice of those LEOs? What happens to this child's impression of LE after this incident? If find it odd that you aren't asking yourself those questions.

You mean like Ruby Ridge? Yeah... it happened and the government last I recalled settled for several million and revised some policies over it. When wrong is wrong I'm game for learning from those situations. When wrong is sorta kinda maybe wrong then I think a closer look is needed before we call something police abuse.

But again, there isn't a lot of good information on this case. A shakey vid and net blogging isn't a complete story. No hard news beyond the Columbia tribune writing a blurb article about it exists and I certainly haven't seen the police reports. So until then I go on the facts of the case. Drug raid happened which usually means a warrant was signed, dogs were shot (breed doesn't matter), guy pleaded guilty to drug possession which was classified as a misdemeanor. So unless someone can point something out in the video or the news story I'm missing... where did things get unjustified based upon the information the police had presented? If the argument can be made that they didn't have enough for a raid that in my eyes goes to the judge that agreed to sign the warrant.

But here's the thing about Ruby Ridge ( and for the record, I've met Randy weaver at a gun show and I have his book "The Federal Siege at Ruby Ridge, it's a great read about the abuse of power:
http://www.amazon.com/Federal-Siege-At-Ruby-Ridge/dp/0966433408/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1273167521&sr=8-2 )
The most revealing thing about Ruby ridge is the punishment handed out to the sniper that murdered Weaver's wife and infant child, the FBI agent Lon Horiuchi.

His punishment? Zero. Not a d*nm thing happened to him. No punishement by the FBI whatsoever.
Only in law enforcement can a trained sniper kill *two* unarmed civilians and face no consequences.
If we did that in Iraq we would have served many years in prison, but the FBI does it?
Nada.

But Randy Weaver was set up by the ATF and committed the horrible crime of selling a rifle with a barrel 1/16 of an inch too short, so I guesss that made him a criminal and it was A-OK to kill his family in your view, right Melissa?

And Claudette, is this "real world" enough for you?

No need for outrage, right?

 Quote: randy allen

Melissa,
I think you're missing the larger point. Who would think it justifiable to go busting into the home for pot? Of any quantity. What thinking person can't come up with one of several easier, safer ways to arrest a pot dealer than busting down doors at night when it's very likely a persons family is sure to be around to add to the confusion?
What justifies such a use of force? Anything in this guys past suggest warranting it?
They do any surveillance before hand? I doubt it, if they had they'd known who and how many others were in the house.
Why such heavy handed tactics when it would have been far easier, safer and likely, less confusion to just arrest him in the morning when he walked out of the house?

I don't care if he had a boat load of pot in the house. Why kick down doors at night to get to it?
As his guy posed no immediate danger to anyone, it sounds more like we had an out of control group that got bored one slow night in Feb.
What's their excuse?
The dog ate my homework.

Randy,
that reminds me of the horrible work done by all the levels of law enforcement at Waco - they had *several* chances to arrest David Koreesh on his trips into town instead of showing up in force at the compound at burning to death 67 people, to include 20 children and two pregnant women.

Another proud moment for the ATF, and totally avoidable had just some smarts been used by the LEOs involved.

 Quote: will rambeau

Randy, that reminds me of the horrible work done by all the levels of law enforcement at Waco - they had *several* chances to arrest David Koreesh on his trips into town instead of showing up in force at the compound at burning to death 67 people, to include 20 children and two pregnant women.

Another proud moment for the ATF, and totally avoidable had just some smarts been used by the LEOs involved.

No doubt.

The founder of Toyota Motors, Kiichiro Toyoda, once said "Every problem is an opportunity and every system defect a treasure."

There are plenty of "treasures" in the history of law enforcement in America, that's for sure.

One would like to think that the Law Enforcement community would benefit from the Waco's and the Ruby Ridge's as learning tools.

I suppose the problem could be as much that the wrong individuals rise to leadership (decision-making) positions as much as it might be inadequate training.

Sortof like we argue here sometimes. It's the individual(s), not the breed (I hope).




-

 Quote: Will Rambeau

His punishment? Zero. Not a d*nm thing happened to him. No punishement by the FBI whatsoever.
Only in law enforcement can a trained sniper kill *two* unarmed civilians and face no consequences.
If we did that in Iraq we would have served many years in prison, but the FBI does it?
Nada.

No kidding, Will. Just ask SGT Evan Vela.

I already had distrust for LEO's, no offense to those who are, just because of past experiences I don't care for most of them. I know that there are some that are respectable, and there are plenty of those who aren't and it's those who are questionable that make me angery and bring on this distrust.

The fact that a family pet was shot and killed in a home being raided, in front of a child, I have no doubts that this child will grow up and have issues with LEO's. I know I sure as hell would.

If anyone came into my house, LEO or not, and starts shooting at my dogs, or cats, because they're acting in a manner that is likely because there's a stranger entering their home, they're going to have a rude awakening at the end of a 12g shotgun.

Knowing that this has happened and will likely happen again, scares me. I have no reason to fear being raided for anything, but the fact that if they get the wrong address or whatever and come through my door and start shooting, knowing that the bullets can penetrate through the walls, too many things can and would go wrong (kids, dogs, me or hubby)... Learning that I can't put my trust in too many people anymore, including those that are there to help.

 Quote: Will Rambeau

But Randy Weaver was set up by the ATF and committed the horrible crime of selling a rifle with a barrel 1/16 of an inch too short, so I guesss that made him a criminal and it was A-OK to kill his family in your view, right Melissa?

Please, don't make it out to be something it's not. I have a very consistent world view concerning this. I do agree that Ruby Ridge was indeed an abuse of power based upon a pissy neighbor which was addressed. While it sadly didn't stop the poor guy's family from dying at the hands of LEOs, a lesson was learned, policies were changed and we move on 15+ years later. The question is WAS in the case of this drug raid an abuse of power or was it following an existing policy, honestly I don't know if Missouri has swat policy requiring certain conduct. If it is policy, perhaps a review is in order which I understand is happening but I don't blame the LEO, I blame the policy. If a policy was broken and this is indeed abuse of power then it's ok to call it that and address whoever made the decision, I just don't see any evidence that would tell me that this is abuse of power rather than an error of judgment based on the evidence presented. What policy was broken? Where does it say beyond a blog that this dog wasn't loose? What was the search warrant issued for and with what evidence from where? Where did the system break or jump to an unsubstantiated conclusion? There is simply not enough evidence up for public view to come to a police abuse conclusion.

However you feel about pot and pot dealers it is a controlled substance and everyone knows it is. There is no legal amount apparently in MO. Play with fire, don't act too shocked if you get burned. This wasn't this guy's first go around with police, he was on probation, as far as I'm concerned he brought this on himself and his family. It's just sad that his dog and his kid had to pay for his drug habit but I dare say that's not terribly unusual with my experience with illegal drug users.

Now if this is about the war on drugs or legalizing pot and if that's right or wrong it's another topic, just as if a dog should be treated as something more important than common property of little to no value concerning the law is another.

 Quote: keleah stull

I already had distrust for LEO's, no offense to those who are, just because of past experiences I don't care for most of them.

But please remember that you don't know "most of them."

I know that it's hard not to succumb to prejudice based on personal experiences, but maybe that's another lesson here: Those are individuals in that video -- not the LE profession or community as a whole.

I don't mean to offend you any more than you mean to offend the many members of this board who are part of that community, and I do understand the ease with which we allow an incident (or several incidents) to paint an entire group in our minds. I imagine we all struggle with that to some extent, about something.