I already responded to this post, but this has been bothering me.

 Quote: CJ Barrett

"Smart dog, inexperienced owner - What went wrong?", would sit better with me, but that's irrelevant at this point. Have you talked to the shelter about what you're experiencing? I'll bet they'd be really surprised to hear what's going on and if you had a gun, you would have shot him? This pup needs rehab and it doesn’t sound like he started out that way.

I don't really know what I would have done. I've never shot anything alive in my life, and I hope I never do. He was probably too close to the man anyway. I just meant that to describe how I felt when I couldn't stop it. That would have been horribly traumatic for me. I would only do something like that to save a person. I'm just glad that dropping to the ground and playing dead worked. (Is that an interesting reaction on his part, or is that something that you would expect to work?)

The shelter people were very happy to see Mondo when we visited (I swear, they are like saints), and I did try to bring up the subject of his guarding, but it's like I wasn't really explaing it well; it was the holidays, there were four people in the room, Mondo was really excited, trying to grab Xmas gifts, going to see people, going in every room, etc. I think they knew him for a long time in that environment, where he was a wild but not mean at all puppy, and I didn't like want to really worry them, when as I said I had already taken care of it so it wouldn't happen again.

If you guys haven't guessed, I really, really love Mondo. He's my all-time favorite dog, and I've loved all my dogs a lot. He is definitely worth training. I have a million storeis about how cute and funny he is...(maybe later, eh?) I'd rather see a dog put to sleep than be a miserable, cowering damaged creature, fearful of every shadow, and dangerous as well. He's just not like that.

I sure know dogs will take a mile if you give them an inch. This is going to be difficult for me, because it feels cruel, but ultimately I know we will all be better off. This was really good, because I feel inspired and very obligated to do the right thing. I'll have to work some details out, but I can do it. I'm still really hoping for good professional help; maybe I'll find somebody. I'd like somebody known to people here. He's very young, and like I said he changed so much already (for the better, except for the gaining confidence towards intruders thing.)

I hope I have adequately convinced those able to read my endless stories that I know Mondo for sure is not a dog who is nervous or anxiety-ridden. I respect your opinions, that's why I'm here, but there were subtleties that I didn't have really completely thought out in my mind, like how he reacted to the german shepherds, or got better with people right away when he was in the car, or how he camed down with the people who were messing around out in the street, that occurred to me as we kept talking.

OK I feel better. Thanks.

I really am not a complete dumb-ass who has got some kind of incredibly damaged animal and am trying to reahabilitate him or something.

Emotional extortion, nobody ever said that. Get off of that, I never though you were stupid...your questions sound like counter arguments, that makes us think you aren't going to take our advice...I got frustrated and gave up on you, thinking, "she's not going to do this."


I an experienced ameteur...

Yes, and like we all started out and got where we are now. Nothing is stopping you. I had a difficult dog to start with.

...with practically a puppy that seems to be very emotionally healthy in almost every way and who is able to learn, even when in what he thinks may be a dangerous situation and it is handled unexpertly.

Fearful dog aren't always scared, they react abnormally to things. Sport was a wonderful house pet, very well behaved, sociable, house broken, quiet...but turn on the vacuum cleaner, ring the doorbell, thunderstorm...different dog. No before you say he's not scared of that stuff, they all have their own triggers.

Yes, but....and I know, right?

So tell us what you have done and how did it go. Or what have you thought about working on first? What about making commands well defined, sit means sit, not down, etc.? Let's talk about training and move forward.

"... what have you thought about working on first?"


What is your next step?

"Let's talk about training and move forward"

OMG, Tresa, I think I love you....

Enough of the THEORY talk. Whether the dog is afraid, nervous, reactive, or a confident dog being a butt face- it is ALL TREATED THE SAME WAY. Pack Structure and Obedience. SOLID, NON-WAVERING, AND CONSISTENT.

MOVE ON. You have spent so much time arguing the theory of what the dog is feeling that I have trained my 5 dogs to do two new tricks. Certainly by now, you should have a good solid sit, down, and recall. If not, perhaps spend more time TRAINING than arguing about the canine psyche with folks.

Pack structure means that the dog looks to YOU for his cues. YOU decide if he can be aggressive or not. YOU not him. OB teaches him the behaviors that you want him to perform instead of the "wrong" behaviors. If he's barking at someone- teach him a behavior that will prevent him from barking- pick up a toy and bring it, go to your place and roll over... how's he gonna bite someone if he's 20 feet away on his back with a toy in his mouth?

Do not, for a second, think that this dog is safe without training. He IS a reactive dog. Learn to read your dog's body language. I can tell exactly what my dogs are thinking just by looking at their ears and tails... and I can head off trouble before it starts.

This has been 6 pages of you arguing about the little things, and not implementing any of the advice you've been given- not counting how many pages were in the LAST thread. Stop the endless circles and excuses. Go out and train your dog.

 Quote: Tresa Hendrix

Emotional extortion, nobody ever said that. Get off of that, I never though you were stupid...your questions sound like counter arguments, that makes us think you aren't going to take our advice...I got frustrated and gave up on you, thinking, "she's not going to do this."

Some of them were arguments, because I don't think Mondo is nervous, anxiety-prone, fearful, whatever the best word for it is. I don't know if you read some of the things I wrote that I thought of later, as I was trying to describe why I just don't think he is like that (I don't know, maybe what he is worse than that; but when people are describing fearful dogs, it doesn't really describe him.) Also I felt really judged without understanding by some people.

Other things weren't arguments so much as discussion, but probably sound like debate. I have to take into consideration the kind of things you guys deal with all the time, the fact you know nothing about me, the seriousness with which you regard the situation, etc. and not get into unnecessary discussions about theory.

I do not question your methods, I'm sure those work, or else I wouldn't be here. It mostly had to do with why everybody thought Mondo was physiologically fearful. As he changed so much over the four months I've had him, with very easy resolution of some things that he was initially scared of, I really didn't think he was this type of dog that a lot of people evidently have had a lot of problems with. (Not that you can't have problems with just a mean dog, which I potentially have.) That's what I was trying to convince people. I think I succeeded with some. It makes a big difference, doesn't it? I thought it was important.

 Quote:

Fearful dog aren't always scared, they react abnormally to things. Sport was a wonderful house pet, very well behaved, sociable, house broken, quiet...but turn on the vacuum cleaner, ring the doorbell, thunderstorm...different dog. No before you say he's not scared of that stuff, they all have their own triggers.

Yes, but....and I know, right?

But however they react, you are saying that the dog is physiologically unsound to some degree, right? You have to take special steps to calm this dog in a way that doesn't work with "normal" dogs, all of whom are scared occasionally, especially when young. Isn't it partially based on whether or not the fear is "rational" or not? (To a dog.) Isn't it also based on whether or not the dog can realize what is and isn't really dangerous, without extreme intervention, as Mondo has? I don't believe Mondo reacts "abnormally" to anything. It's more exaggerated in some ways with him, but not a lot, and it makes a much bigger difference because of his size and breed. Really, the latter reasons are mostly why it's important that I be able to completely control him in all situations. (Like somebody said, who cares if I spoil an old beagle. But Mondo is a different story.)

I think to him, accosting intruders is normal. It scared him at first, but he did it anyway, and he didn't get hurt, and then he wasn't scared anymore. I realize that Mondo has not been hurt by a delivery man (I assume), but that's getting into the category of instinctive behavior being reinforced, right? He wouldn't necessarily never have to be hurt by a delivery man to get over it, the way he was never hurt by the german shepherds, because in his particular case, he doesn't have an instinct/drive to attack those german shepherds. If he did, and he fought them and won, that would probably be reinforced as well. If he fought and lost, and then learned, that would be normal. If he fought and lost but did it over and over, that would be abnormal. Doesn't that make sense? If a delivery man kicked the shit out of Mondo, he may leave them alone, but of course I can't test that out.

Did you read where I described how Mondo got used to people outside the car, which at first freaked him out? And the german shepherds, which he was rational of course to be afraid of, but after realizing they couldn't get out, he ignores now?

See what I mean? I really didn't want to cause trouble, and I really wanted to get advice. I have, and I really appreciate it. It does make a big difference, doesn't it?

 Quote:

So tell us what you have done and how did it go. Or what have you thought about working on first? What about making commands well defined, sit means sit, not down, etc.? Let's talk about training and move forward.

I started that last night, and practiced this morning and just now. He knows the difference now, and will do sit from down, and not just down from sit. He may not be perfect yet, but he did the mixed-up combination perfectly (I never thought to test far away, but when he is near.) (I'd show you, but I am paranoid of technique-criticism. I think even imperfect marker training works, I guess something used to work to train dogs before that.)

I guess I need to re-start marking training, using a verbal command (which I liked better anyway, after I saw the DVD's), and start over with him focusing on me, and basically re-train myself too, if possible. I need to figure out how I'm going to do NILIF; a routine that fits with our schedule. Until I get it totally figured out, I'll do all the parts that I can--not petting, not on furniture, going thru doors correctly, etc. I will rewatch the DVD's, read stuff here, and print it out so I remember all the rules.

I'm a little bit confused if I should use the prong collar or not. I just recently got it, have never pulled him back, only let him correct himself, only happened like once or twice. He actually walks pretty good on a leash; I could get him perfect with that really quickly, I think. (By my standards, I guess, which I realize may not be as high as some people's.)

Thanks for the encouragement. I don't know if you'll believe me about his neurologic condition (or lack of it), or if it doesn't really matter after all, but I appreciate the help.

 Quote: Kelly

Enough of the THEORY talk. Whether the dog is afraid, nervous, reactive, or a confident dog being a butt face- it is ALL TREATED THE SAME WAY. Pack Structure and Obedience. SOLID, NON-WAVERING, AND CONSISTENT.

MOVE ON. You have spent so much time arguing the theory of what the dog is feeling that I have trained my 5 dogs to do two new tricks. Certainly by now, you should have a good solid sit, down, and recall. If not, perhaps spend more time TRAINING than arguing about the canine psyche with folks.

OK. If that doesn't make a critical difference, I guess I wasted time on that. I think good training is going to make the difference too, no matter what.

 Quote:

Do not, for a second, think that this dog is safe without training. He IS a reactive dog. Learn to read your dog's body language. I can tell exactly what my dogs are thinking just by looking at their ears and tails... and I can head off trouble before it starts.

Then all dogs are reactive. Maybe that's what you are saying. I don't think he is safe without training, that's why I'm here.

 Quote:

This has been 6 pages of you arguing about the little things, and not implementing any of the advice you've been given- not counting how many pages were in the LAST thread. Stop the endless circles and excuses. Go out and train your dog.

Like I said, I've had him four months, taking four days to figure out what I need to do over probably won't make that much difference ultimately. I actually have been training him, to the best of my ability, and will continue to do so. I'm sorry if I wasted peoples' time, but I feel somewhat obligated to respond to people who post in a thread I started in some kind of meaningful way. I actually figured out a lot by doing this, with all of your help. I'm sorry it was so annoying. (Really; I know people are busy, especially people taking care of dogs.)

One more thing I forgot to ask...what happened at the vet with Mondo? You never did say. Dogs can be accustomed to being examined by you and then others and then the vet. Logan used to be a dominant jerk (layman's term) and has to wear a muzzle. But I did some work and he's more accepting of the process. Last visit, he stood nice for the entire exam but always will wear a muzzle for safety.

I can see clearly by what you have said that he is a fearful dog. There's no doubts about it...I have handled numbers of "normal" dogs with sound temperaments. Here's an analogy for you: everybody cries so just because everybody cries doesn't mean a depressed person crying is normal too. So YES Mondo has fear issues, not debatable. You already gave examples of his fear reactions.

Moving forward.

 Quote: Tresa Hendrix

... I can see clearly by what you have said that he is a fearful dog. There's no doubts about it... YES Mondo has fear issues, not debatable.

I agree a thousand percent and cannot believe we are still debating it. Let's stop.

Here is what I do at the shelter: I evaluate and rehab (when it seems to me to be doable) fearful, anxious, reactive (the whole spectrum) dogs.

Your first post cemented your dog's reactivity/fearfulness. It was up in the air where he falls on that range, but you immediately received advice about what to do, regardless.


"One more thing I forgot to ask...what happened at the vet with Mondo? "

Did he try to bite staff, did something happen in the waiting room? Can it be described in 100 words or fewer?

Reactivity can be defined as an over-the-top reaction to common stimuli (like the UPS man.

Dogs communicate their discomfort and try to send messages by using threat displays such as barking, growling. These are normal reactions to show that someone is too close, too pushy, too scary. Your dog is telling you that he is uncomfortable and needs space.

However, a reactive dog resorts to these behavior displays at inappropriate times, too quickly. A reactive dog will respond with a more extreme reaction than normal. All dogs bark, and many bark at very specific stimuli, but when that reaction is uncontrollable and extreme you have a reactive dog.

Some causes of reactivity in dogs can be:

•Medical causes (pain, poor eyesight, improper thyroid levels)

•Fear (timid nature, prior negative experiences)

•Arousal/Frustration (lack of exercise, leashed or fenced and unable to escape)

•Genetics (herding instincts, resource guarding, prey drive)

•Lack of Socialization (not enough new or positive experiences in critical periods)

•Learned Behavior (threat displays have "worked" in the past)

•Stress Hormones (which can stay in the body from previous episodes)

Is anything sinking in? Does ANYTHING look familiar??

Most of us have had reactive dogs- it's not a big deal if you have decent pack structure and solid OB. It doesn't mean he's some freak of nature- if that's what you are worried about. It feels like you have to defend him- like a child that scored really low in standardized tests or something. We aren't judging him- we are calling it as we see it. He OVER REACTED. He therefore is a REACTIVE dog.

GET OVER THE LABELS AND MOVE ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How many ways do I have to say this?????

And now let's move forward. Because if the posts start to be about basic ob training, I can stop thinking about shooting myself in the head.

Kelly's post doesn't need a multi-quote response; it was information as opposed to questions.

Also:

"One more thing I forgot to ask...what happened at the vet with Mondo? "

Did he try to bite staff, did something happen in the waiting room? Can it be described in 100 words or fewer?