Quote: Tresa Hendrix

Somewhere I got lost trying to find the point of this thread.

Lol, there is no point. Just blabbing about things no one cares about.
At least from my side.

Mike - thanks for the much needed dose of common sense. To other long time members - I probably agree with 90% of what you are saying but articulation through frustration is not one of my stregths. So I'll get off this current merry-go-round and try to better articulate my point in a new thread at a later time. Natalie - I'm done arguing. If you want to discuss something based on personal experience or reputable theory (like names of books or links/direct quotes from websites) that you've read about then I'm game. But no more "I don't follow/it doesn't make sense so you're wrong/off base/whatever".

This thread is petering out... but why do we always use killer whales as an example of marker training working so great? Elephants are much more common and a much more real example because elephants are actually used as work animals in Thailand and other parts of the world. "Training" (NOT domestication) has been going on for centuries (unlike with killer whales).

Elephants are similar to killer whales (and dolphins, too) and are highly intelligent, and form lasting social bonds. Unlike whales, "trainers" correct elephants to an extreme level. Going so far as the beat the living daylights out of a chained elephant with a bunch of men to "teach it a lesson". That hooked stick they use- yes, that hurts and elephants know it. Chains, social isolation, starvation- all those are and were used to train compliance in elephants. So, yes, corrections work even in animals not "hardwired to please us". Every animal is hardwired to avoid pain. My brother "trained" a worm in high school. Horses are fitted with bit and bridle. And so on.

Sure, some dogs don't want to please us but that isn't the point of marker training, is it? The dog can please itself with marker training by getting a reward he wants, be it food or toy or something else.

You ever see a litter of malinois pups with a rag? That is called innate behavior. And a litter of sled dog pups will take to harness pulling at three months. Neither of these behaviors are done to please the handler. Through selective breeding, pulling and biting are self-rewarding to the dogs.

I like to work with a dog's strengths rather than against them, but corrections are part of dog training. Even a dog that loves you will do things you don't want him to do because they are self-rewarding at the time (eg. chasing deer, not "outing" off a bite, etc.). If a dog never does anything bad, he either never has gotten the chance, or somehow nothing "bad" is rewarding to him. In that case, lucky you.

No, I don't. We are not understanding each other, it happens

Kiersten, this came up because I read Ed's article where he said something like 'clicker training people are no corrections people. It is so because clicker training came to us from sea world people and you can't correct a killer whale. Dogs must have corrections though'

I don't know how it blew up into this.
I just wanted to know why, if a killer whale can be trained with no corrections a dog can't.

I was just wondering why Ed said that.

ETA. You explained it. Someone else already explained this to me. Killer whales are not corrected but they're socially isolated, don't have the freedom to swim thousands of miles, fed some garbage and essentially, they're working to get basic life necessities (food). Same with elephants.

I don't have a question anymore.

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 Quote: Natalie Rynda

... I don't have a question anymore.