Quote:

Still, i am unsure... my dog doesn't seem to feel dogtra vibration. Maybe it will just take more repetition? And she will come to feel it?
My dog has always been a very "sturdy". It really takes a lot physically to get this dogs attention. This dog will literally ignore burns from hot pavement. (bad ownership, in far past) And when shes in "psycho" mode i could just about hang her, and she would not snap out of it.

Until you understand what this statement means in the realm of dog training put the e collar in a locked safe.

 Quote: Bob Scott

I've never used an e-collar in almost 60 yrs of dog training.
It's also one of, if not the easiest dog training tools to abuse.

In the right hands its great. Not in the right hands and the Marquis de Sade comes to mind, intentionally or otherwise.

If you take nothing else away from this thread, take this. Bob has trained multiple dogs in multiple venues with multiple methods over the years.

I am NOT anti e collar. I use one for certain situations. Like most powerful tools you can cross the line of no return with them in a nano second.

And with the best intentions while doing so.

Brianah, I think you need to afford the dog the opportunity to understand the tool, which you have certainly not done, before jumping to any conclusions about it's effectiveness.

During your first "experiment," I will not call it training, with the dog, you stimulated the dog several times on vibrate (vibed) and saw no response. Then you immediately went to stim to see what would happen.

THIS is how people fail their dogs with e-collars. They get impatient and turn up the pressure without affording the dog the opportunity to process the information it is being given, followed up by clear instruction about what is expected of the dog.

It baffles me how someone who has trained in so many venues to do so many different behaviors can skip the most fundamental of learning steps. Did you think the remote was the Staples EASY button? It's not.

I have a hard time believing 4 experienced dog people watched you do this to your dog, and didn't steer you in the right direction.

Here's what things SHOULD have looked like:

Put the collar on the dog, watching for any signs of stress. Any stress present and you go no further with the dog until it is comfortable in the collar (could be hours, days, weeks, whatever).

Work the dog in a comfortable environment with as few distractions as possible.

Vibe the dog, give WATCH command, mark and reward compliance. It doesn't matter if the dog is responding to the vibe at first. It just may be confused and avoiding it. The dog CAN feel it. It just has no idea what it means, and sometimes it's easier to ignore something than deal with it.

Continue this pattern for many repetitions. Vibe, WATCH, mark / reward until you get 40-50 repetitions of continuous success.

Then you vibe the dog and wait for it to comply with the watch, leaving out the verbal cue, and mark / reward for success. If by then the dog isn't responding, you should rethink the appropriateness of this tool for this dog. If the dog complies, continue reinforcement of the behavior and add it to normal training routines.



It's a simple process that leads to understanding, as are most effective communication techniques. It gets complicated and confusing when you start grabbing the dial and expecting immediate progress. Give the dog a chance to understand this new sensation. Right now you are raising criteria exponentially without any direction or previous success. That's not fair to the dog IMO.

Edited by David Winners (07/26/2014 07:58 AM)
Edit reason: ETA

 Quote: Cathy Goessman

So the board is always careful to tell someone to stop pushing buttons until a system is in place to insure that the dog doesn't gain bad associations with the stim. Those first associations can remain superstitions with the dog for a long time.

THIS was the point of all the advice that you were given. From the moment of your OP, we were all concerned that you might just throw an ecollar on your dog and start messing around. That can sometimes be a bad experience for an older dog. Some people feel like,"Why take the chance of doing real damage if there's no pressing need, epecially in the twilight years".

There is one thing I'd like to correct you on and encourage you to research... A dog sniffing the ground when left in a down is exhibiting signs of stress and the beginning of avoidance. The dog is waiting to be picked up. A dog who is not stressed when left in a position will be alert with it's head up, pbly intent on the handler. When a dog is stressed enough, it may not react as expected to new stressors. Food for thought.

As Batty said, when you learn to recognize stress and avoidance, you can take your training to a new level.

haha you said " Batty " . . . i think you meant " Betty " .

You're right, and my edit window has closed! So, so sorry to you, Betty.

 Quote: ian bunbury

haha you said " Batty " . . . i think you meant " Betty " .

To add to what David posted: When I started my dog on low level stim there was no visible reaction. But I could see that higher levels were too much so I persisted in training with those lower levels that my dog "didn't feel". Turns out that he does feel them. You can see it in his responses now that he knows what the stim means.

Yes Cathy!

Sometimes the dog will be stoic and ignore the stim when it doesn't understand it. Once you get understanding with the dog, you can often lower the stim level. I work Fama from 6-24 for basic NePoPo, depending on the distraction level. Her level was 14 when we first started, but dropped to 6-7 after the first couple of training sessions.

 Quote: CJ Barrett

 Quote: Brianah Maloney

Old dog, lay down.

You know, dog spins in circles when you take a 2 day vacation from training.

I cant sleep.

Duane: Why can't you sleep?

 Quote: Brianah Maloney

Because some pain in the rump yellow man decided he wants nothing to do with sleep, and would rather have his kong and play, right now.

Is this "pain in the rump yellow man" the same dog that you want to teach the down too?

Tried to follow the original thought thru the thread but couldn't quite understand why someone would want to teach an active dog only one command. The "down" command at that. All that money just to keep a dog down.

And I know you're passed this, thinking of a better use, like getting her to look at you but I still can't help but think that you really want her to "down". Novelty or not.

You borrowed an e-collar, threw it on her and she didn't react to 14 or something so you started stimming her.

Are you familiar with how tight the right tightness is? And a dog actually needs a few days of just wearing the collar at the right tightness before you start to figure out what her sensitivity level is.

It's a good process. The dog gets used to the two nodes somewhat poking the side of it's neck, snuggly. Increasing the length of time they wear it. After a few days, (a week or two is actually recommended) there's a quick vibration coming from it. I've never had a dog not respond.

But back to what sounds more like the issue, to me. And it seems that Cheri and Connie touched on it to.

We've had nights where the dogs are active. Take a drink of water and wake you up with a "mouth full of water" kiss. Pretend your toes are a long lost toy that they can't wait to get out of the covers. Usually a night where things are stirring around outside or they just want a little more attention. Sometimes they have to pee or they're just plain restless.

I'd of probably taken that kong and stuffed it with peanut butter. However, if it's a common occurrence, they need to learn that night time is "down" time. And you had the answer to your own dilemma there.

 Quote: Brianah Maloney

I did eventually sleep. Ignored the fuss.

If you're set on training this older, active dog with an e-collar, just as a novelty, why not do it properly? I have the both Einsteins and Dogtras. Both are great but the vibrate on the Einsteins far outweighs the older Dogtra's. My dogs are pretty sensitive to anything coming out of my mouth and the vibrate. First time out with the Einsteins, they acted like they'd been stimmed with the vibrate so they're turned right down to 5.

However, it sounds like you have a better option, the Flyball Box. Tired dogs easily learn that night time is "down" time.

Sorry, might have missed the mark here, so take it for what it's worth.

Brianah,
CJ brings up some very valid points. Consider your own comments about your dog's behavior and how they compare to the symptoms of "not severe pain" In the article below. Also post a video of your girl working so you won't have to keep explaining, easier for all. Plus I'm a fan of the drivey seniors . Re-read the posts after you read the article. No one denies your girl's energy or drive though that's all you seem to be getting from the posts. And I stand by my original post Save your Money! If its a new cue you want to teach her why not use a clap, a tap on the shoulder with a pointer, or a snap of your finger. I'm surprised you moved to the stim for a reaction..... What did it prove? That you caused her discomfort to satisfy your curiosity? Kind of selfish and you are so much better than that. One of the best things about this forum is the support but also the gentle (well sometimes not so gentle) reminders when our human frailties get the best of us. And none of us are immune from this after all a human is a human.
http://m.psychologytoday.com/blog/canine-corner/201109/do-dogs-feel-pain-the-same-way-humans-do