Real life never lies. Have any of you seen the handlers and the dogs at the WTC site? One handler told the reporter he was too tired to play with his dog to reward him. That was his reason for the dog not performing.

I was there...and dog too..Tuesday 9/11 afternoon at 4PM. We worked from then till about 4AM slept till 7AM and then worked again till about 3:30 or 4. I think many things go into what people do in real life. Perhaps playing happy toss a ball and play after you just found a dead fireman/police officer or civilian casualty perhaps is not in the best taste for the situation. I wouldn't do it with my dog in that situation, and did not. A foundation if trained correctly it will carry them(dog) through lack of instant reward. Sorry, but to me this is another "drive" issue. If they are not driven to hunt, they won't. Perhaps you might need to leave the actual scene and run a few training drills with your dog out of sight to do your rewards. In some dogs it might make the difference.
As for your comments on 20 yrs doesn't make it right, I agree. Normally I reply to those statements that perhaps for 20 yrs they've been doing it wrong also...LOL
To the "expert" comment. I'll steal this from my pal Lou...hope I get it correct, but he'll be sure to correct me if I'm wrong. "An expert is someone from out of town with a set of slides. A certified expert is someone from out of town who brings his/her own projector."...LOL

Josh:

God bless you, your dog, and America! You and your dog and all the rescue workers are true "heros". Thank you.

Thats "Heroes"! Sorry I spell like an idiot!LOL

Josh,

Thanks for going and helping. That is what this is all about. You have shown selfless service to others. I applaud you.

All I've ever wanted to do is find a better way. I'll always be open to finding truth.

I learn from my dogs. They teach me. I believe they know us to our core, and chose to walk at our sides anyway.

The dogs know how to work already. It has been my experience they wait for us, hoping we will see. I usually feel I'm the one that is being trained. For me to progress, I need to learn to get to where they are.

During the times we live in, like minded people will come together. The dogs teach us all. Want to know someone? Give them a pup. That pup will show who and what they are.

Kent

The dogs know how to work already. It has been my experience they wait for us, hoping we will see. I usually feel I'm the one that is being trained. For me to progress, I need to learn to get to where they are.

Then they most certainly do NOT need shock collars used on them then, right? We just have to bring out what is inside of them using the old style methods, not these new fangled trendy training aids like the shock collar or use toys as a reward. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Kelly, why must you toss something into a post just baiting everyone to start the whole e-collar post again. FINE, we GET IT...you don't like e-collars!!! Great...why don't you call the five families, one being a FDNY and another a NYPD Officer my dog recovered at the WTC while wearing a e-collar! I'm sure they would love to hear why my dog should not have been there!!!!! Go post your un-educated, un-willing to learn post elsewhere!

I agree with Chuck, you are certainly heroes. A big thanks to you and your dog for all the work and dedication. I hope I get the privilege of meeting you and your canine partner some day. Thanks again, this is what America is all about. My thoughts and prayers to the victims, families and all the rescue crew. God Bless

Josh,

Glad to hear you at least had some success in an awful position. I don't think most people have any idea how tough that job is on a handler and dog. I have had to do some work with staff members after suicides and watched it reduce trained Psych profesionals to tears. I can't imagine having to deal with that much death and destruction. In addition to the respect and gratitude of the rest of us that can't do it, we wish you well in dealing with the difficulties of dealing with a terrible situation. It takes a truely special person to be able to do that type of work, I am not sure I could.

Kent,

The reason we waited so long to start dogs is that it is a very fine line to take a dog to fight/flight and not push them over the edge and destroy the working ability. With puppies the margin is even narrower. Experience has shown that dogs trained in prey first develop better working abilities. This is based on training lots of dogs by many trainers. If what you suggest works so well why are the Dog Men the only ones recomending it? Why have most of the trainers abandoned it? Profesional trainers don't care how you get results, just that you get the best results. They do what works the best. If the Dog Men have such a better way, how many of their trained dogs are out working professionally?

I have taken a dog and pushed it too far with your method and it has taken 4 years to staighten out less than 6 months training!! He will never reach the potential he would otherwise have. My fault, following your suggested training method, and we didn't push him that hard. Yeah, I have made mistakes with dogs and it was bad for the dog... I would rather someone else didn't have to go through what I did to fix a problem you create on your own. Most of the people on this list have one shot at getting their dog trained right, if they blow it either the dog has to be replaced or they will have to wait 10-15 years to try again. Why not go with a method that won't create that situation, and has a wider tolerance for error? Take as many tennis balls as you want, I will introduce you to dogs that will knock you out, with or without throwing them.

You say you are no expert but you have no problem telling people that are experts that they don't know what they are doing. You say that you can throw a tennis ball and divert a working PSD, come on down I'll introduce you to Rex, he'll change your mind. You say that you would never train with prey and describe a perfect prey session for a puppy. You say you look at things in a simple way, that may be true, it isn't a simple task to produce a well trained PPD when you have all the time in the world. Training a PSD in the alotted time frame is exponentionaly more difficult. If you are willing to accept a lower level of function then keep up with what you are recomending, I have worked with that level of training and it produced some very acceptable dogs. They could have been better, I know that now and am working for a higher level of function.

You talk about having dogs bite and release so the bad guy can "bleed out", learn some law. The idea behind using a dog is to deploy a non-lethal method of apprehending someone. If you are training the dog to "bleed out" the target, you are training the dog to kill, use a gun it is more effective and will cause you less trouble with the Law. The current basis for dog bite law for PSD and PPD is based on the idea that there is no "reasonable" expectation that the subject will die from the dog bite. It is based on bite and hold, if you want to deviate from that, you lose that legal protection.

If you want help, you came to the right place. If you want converts, you are talking to the wrong people. We have done this before and know better!!

For the training to work you also need to view the dog much differently. One doesn't work without the other. What you know is different, not better.