VanCamp,

As you have pointed out often, a good (even High drive) working dog is still a good pet. Provided it isn't overly handler hard or Rank. With out those 2 things they are easy to handle and quite capable of being an exelent pet, service dog or PSD. The difference is that the dog understands it's place and isn't going to try and rule the world. Lets face it good working temperament dogs are the most stable dogs in the world. They have to be.

I don't think I agree. There are dogs today that have high drive, and they are not rank, but I would not have them in my house, or as a "pet" because they have so much drive, they are always going. They want and need to do something. THis type of dog is really not a pet dog. This dog deserves to be in a working envoirment. It needs drive satisfaction.
I agree with Van Camp, that if you have to breed for the extreme and hopefully you will get soemthing in between. If you breed a dog that is maybe a level 7 dog, you most likley will not get a level 7 dog, but a dog that is lower in drive and hardness.
Really to expect to have a well balanced dog in every dog is not realistic. Genitics and breeding just do not work that way.
I have said before, most show-lines in my view should be spayed or nuetered. There are very few that have any qualities that I like in a dog. The one's that oo like Fedor Arminus that, I have seen a few of his offspring, are not normally bred in the right way. I think that even though some people do not like the hard-core working dog breeder's they are not the one's that are destroying the breed today. Look at Troll Haus Milinda. He is a top working dog, but yet the guys' mother or mother-in-law who is old walks him and bred him to a bitch with no trouble at all. He is a good dog, but can kick-butt at work. Not many show dog breeders can say the same thing about any of thier dogs. If this dog was not worked though, chances are he would have been a pain to have around in a home situation.

I don't think Richard was trying to say all working line dogs make great housedogs, but there are dogs in working lines that are good all-around dogs. Even out of high-drive parents. There are even some out of exceptional breeding that are nothing more than pets.

I know the type of dog you are referring to. I house/dog sit for a club member on occasion and the first time I did I was trying to give all the kennel dogs individual house time. Well, most of the dogs got about an hour till I got to Kyra... She was in the house about 15 mins before I put her back in the kennel and renamed her RICOCHET. I had to physically THROW her out of my lap three times.

OK so I am confused.......

A working dog needs something to do....and the best way to handle that is to put it in a kennel with NOTHING TO DO???????? Some how that doesn't make sense. Perhaps if the dog was taught some house manners, and worked so that they get drive satisfaction through either protection, service, or even just play they would be perfectly acceptable companions??? Think a little differently here, the idea that the best method of handling a high drive dog is by isolating it is designed to attempt to increase drive through boredom. These dogs are quite capable of living and participating in a real life. The thing that makes many of these dogs difficult isn't their drive level it is the Rank and handler hardness, neither of which has anything to do with working abilty.

The BRT has been bred to not be handler hard nor to have rank issues....THANK GOD. A 130 pound rank dog isn't something I would want to deal with. They are quite capable of doing multiple types of work at several levels. That doesn't mean that they don't come with working drives or some problems that result. This particular breed is so driven in pack drive that they can't be kept in a kennel effectively. They need the social contact with their owners. They do still have some problems and they can have problems dealing with people outside of the family. They need work at some level and a proper education in manners. They still can work. The big problem with many of the problem dogs is that they are isolated from contact.

The problem here is that we have modified the life style of these dogs to exclude them from participation to attempt to go for an out of control drive to improve their performance in a sport. Does that mean that the dog isn't capable of being an acceptable companion, or that we won't let it be an acceptable companion? How often have we heard that if you want a top SchH dog it has to kept in a kennel? Could the same dog not be kept in the house and taught some manners? I doubt it, but then it wouldn't be starved for attention and wouldn't do anything to gain the attention it craves. It is the pack drive that gives the dog the desire to please it's handler. Perhaps the dog wouldn't be so driven in the pack drive if it got more attention?

And what exatly do we sacrifice by allowing the dog access to a greater satisfaction in it's pack drive (something we attempt to breed at increases levels to get the desire to please that increases performance)? A few points??? Does that mean the dog is incapable of doing good work? Might that not increase the dogs desire to protect the pack leader by developing the bond further? Why does an untrained dog try and protect it's handler/owner? Maybe it is that pack drive?

And what is lost..... the dog may not sit quite as quickly? I can live with that. Don't delude yourself that the reason a dog is kept in a kennel is it required to maintain the dogs ability to work. Or the dog isn't capable of living in the house properly because it needs drive satisfaction. Just exactly what drive does living in a kennel satisfy? We keep dogs in kennels for our convience, and to attempt to deny them drive satisfaction to make them work better for a few points.

Yeah, I am probably confused about how dogs function.

Mike and Rich I agree with both of you. On one hand, a high drive dog can make a poor house dog, and on the other hand they can make great house pets. The whole situation depends on the owner's lifestyle and activity level and their ability to work with the dog to channel it's drive into something positive. I know what you are trying to say Mike, but I lean more towards what Richard says because with a high drive dog, the problem is more a handler thing then a dog thing.

 Quote:

Originally posted by Richard Cannon:


Yeah, I am probably confused about how dogs function.

Hmmmm.........Your joking right?! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Ok, maybe that wasn't the best example. Kyra may be ok in a house as a single dog, but she would HAVE to be worked consistantly. Her current owner is placing her for sale when her OFA comes back because she already has another bitch and they both can't be house dogs, nor can she work 3 SchH dogs plus be the ACO and run her animal shelter. I was interested in Kyra, but know(now after having spent some time with her) she is more dog than I could consistantly keep up with even if she was taught how to be a house dog.

I tend to be on the same lines with you Richard. My dogs are first and foremost house dogs and companions.

As I have said before, most of the problems we have with high drive dogs are a result of how they are raised and socialized. Most would be absolutly fine if they were raised and trained and socialized and taught some manners so they could function in "polite society". Part of the problem with most of the working dogs is that they are obtained as adults, having been raised in a kennel with limited socialization and limited exposure to people other than to train. Their whole life is to train and work. Given an opportunity to try and fit in, they don't know how to act. And exactly why is that?

Chuck,

I must be confused...that is what everybody keeps telling me!!! :rolleyes: <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> :rolleyes:

There are dogs that I would not have in my house simply because common-sense dictates that I do not want my house destroyed. Sure I could have him inside and teach him manners, but to believe that a dog with high drive would rather spend time being told no , don't jump on my table and the like, and this is what his life revolves around, then to be outside and used as a service dog, or high level sport dog, is foolish. There are simply some dogs, that like to play with something and move around for the better part of thier day. These dogs are beter suited for work. Crate them, train them, kennel them. They are not lap dogs. If you don't mind a dog all over yourself, then that is fine. I guess it depends on your lifestyle. Your understanding and my understanding of pack drive are not on the same page.
Why do dogs that have no training try and protect thier handlers..........ummmmm.....pack drive? Of course, but there are also other drives involved and nerves??????? Make sense? Every dog has an in-herited genitic make-up. Do you think that letting a dog run about your house, and interact with your everyday lifestyle and then go work the street for an 8 hour shift is doing the dog any good, and yourself for that matter if you are a police K-9 handler, then I guess you are confused. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
Some dogs are better left out of the whole home situation, not to say that the service dog or home dog cannot come inside and hang-out for a while, but his/her primary place of living should be in the kennel or crate. This is also related to pack-drive. There are enough dogs that come out of working lines that have not inherited or developed the higher drives to have on your sofa. You are not going to sell me the idea that if my service dog, or sport dog lives with me inside, I would do our relationship good, because we are bonding; get real. My dogsd do not live int he house, but I can tell you this, I have a more then likley better bond with them then the guy who lets the dog live with him. There are not many working dogs that can live in that situation, and not have thier performance suffer. To think otherwise...................

Michael,

I might accept that except.....

A significant number, if not the majority, of K-9 handlers do exactly that. If the dog isn't working then the dog is in the house with the family. Many of these dogs are high drive Mals. Working PSD apprehension dogs, not just drug or bomb dogs.

I say it again, the reason that people don't keep these dogs as house mates comes down to a few factors that have absolutly nothing to do with the dogs.

The reasons are:

1) The dog is undersocialized and not trained to function in a non-working, non-training situation.
Why? Because they were raised in a kennel except when they were working or training.

2) People are worried about a few points in a dog sport trial. Done to maintain the dog in a state of boredome to increase the pack drive and the desire for attention.

3) It is inconvient for the owner to have the dog around because they may have to supervise the dog and keep it busy.

4) People have more dogs than they can adequately control or maintain unless the dogs are kenneled to keep them confined and out of trouble.

I have no problem with any of these reasons. There are cases that these things are perfectly reasonable to meet certain goals. It would be impossible to provide adequate numbers of dogs for service requirements.

But lets not kid ourselves that the dogs have to be kenneled for them to function. It just isn't the case. It wasn't the case 30 years ago (when it wasn't done), it wasn't the case 20 years ago (whent it wasn't done), and it isn't the case now.