Quote: steve strom

As I try and decide what direction to go with my next dog the one thing that makes me hesitant about a Mal and lean towards a GSD is the part about sensitive. I'm not sure I'm right for a dog that is a very fast learner and not forgiving of mistakes.

I'm not sure what you mean by "not forgiving of mistakes" My Mal bitch is my first working line dog of any breed. Mistakes you say .. I've made tons of them, but yet my dog has been very forgiving to me. It helps that I've had access to great help in training her with OB and French Ring to negate my 'greenish hue' as well. My next dog in 9-10 years will be different, hopefully I'll won't screw up as bad on that one!

As far as the comment about "sensitive" like in anything you can use whatever traits that a dog has to your advantage. Having a dog that is sensitive to you the handler is not a bad thing and doesn't make the dog a nerve bag, or make the dog fall apart to do the work. The key is know what to look for and then working with it.

My French Ring coach has a really hard Male Mal he has to be on top of him like a hawk and uses a lot more compulsion mixed with positive reinforcement. This is compared to his other Male Mal who is more handler sensitive, the coach rarely raises his voice with that dog. Does it make one dog better than the other? Nope just different. They both do the work and do it well.

One mistake I made with Andy was not following every part of Building Drive & Focus. I didnt spend any time at all on the into my arms/cradling. A year ago I never thought I would be training in Sch. with him and never thought for a minute I would be doing any bite work. That came back to bite me because trying to cradle a Rott who fully intends to kill the sleeve is a nightmare. Besides the beating I took, I stepped on his foot three weeks in a row so for the next couple of weeks he watched me out of the corner of his eye. He never quit working and after a couple of weeks he was fine again. So he forgave me being a clod and it hasnt been a problem. If I had done the same things with a Mal, I wonder if I would have created something that the dog would never forget and would always be wary of the clumsy handler next to him.

 Quote: steve strom

If I had done the same things with a Mal, I wonder if I would have created something that the dog would never forget and would always be wary of the clumsy handler next to him.

Nah .. My dog is just aware of the clumsy handler next to her, not wary. Trust me I made the same mistakes and worse. Hasn't hurt her in the least bit .. we are both learning together and are becoming a better team as we go along.

Would she have progressed quicker with a more experienced handler .. probably. Would I have progressed as quick as a handler with a different dog? Probably not.

What is happening now is she is gaining confidence in me through regular and calm work...giving her confidence on the field and ring showing her that it is a team effort. I 'see' more and she 'hears' more, hopefully it is all downhill coasting from here, or at the very least a breeze at our backs!

It sounds like your training, experiences, and progress are a lot like ours Geoff. Thanks for your input on my thoughts.

I'm constantly stepping on my dogs feet in training, especially in the defense of handler, I'll step on the rear feet while they are walking backwards. I try to avoid doing it, but the way they walk makes it very difficult. They have never even acted like they noticed, to focused on the decoy :-)

Some dogs will react to it, some won't, just depends on the dog, when it happens, their drive state at the time, etc.

 Quote: Kadi_Thingvall

I'm constantly stepping on my dogs feet in training,

HA...this provokes dog bites at my house. I have learned NOT to step on Little Em's feet and if I do I have learned to be quick and calm as she lets me know I did.......

 Quote: Kadi_Thingvall

I'm constantly stepping on my dogs feet in training, especially in the defense of handler, I'll step on the rear feet while they are walking backwards. I try to avoid doing it, but the way they walk makes it very difficult. They have never even acted like they noticed, to focused on the decoy :-)

Ha-ha! You too? My dog has learnt the hard way to be watchful I've tripped over her heeling forward as well as backwards. Her defense of handler she is now looking for my leg and has modified her gait so I don't trip over her after the 'bye'. I probably trip over her more heeling normally now, usually when she is not paying attention or something silly like that.

Thanks for the input again Kadi. I guess the one thing I can say for sure is, I'm not sure.

But she's so darn cute, a little nip here and there can't bother you right Carol, LOL.

I think the biggest difference between the two is how you approach your training. You can’t approach both dogs with the same mindset regarding how you are going to obtain your goals.

I like to think that “Drive” and “Control” are two sides of a scale. As you increase drive and start to tip the scale you must put focus onto control work to balance out the scale. IMO the GSD has a much larger margin to work with. Drive can be built in large increments and the control needed to balance the dog is easier to raise quickly.

When working with Mal’s the drive has to be increased slowly so that the control can be worked into the dog in that same slow fashion. Most Mal’s require very little stimulation to raise drive through the roof. Too often trainers will apply the same techniques to Mal’s as they do with GSD’s to raise that drive. Often the end result is applying too much stimulation to a dog that needed very little to begin with….the scale gets so out of kilter that massive amounts of control now have to be applied to the dog.

Where things go down hill fast is when that same trainer says I’m going to force the control into the equation and now massive amounts of compulsion are used to bring the over stimulated drive under control. The Mal will learn eloquently how to fight through the pain to achieve drive satisfaction…. the eyes roll back into the head, the muscles tighten and quiver…. You now have a mess on your hands. It’s not easy resetting a brain that only has two marbles in it.

Kadi brought up such a great point about needing to be on your toes regarding timing. A wise trainer once told me that if he could make every praise and correction come at the perfect time he could train a dog it four weeks….. If he could do the same with a Mal it would only take two…. But they are so damn fast!