LEO's have the power to do many things a citizen can't do and NEED to be held to a higher standard Connie. There may have been rights here that were trampled on.

Milissa,
Are you serious? Thank god and SWAT that joint and pot pipe are off the streets!I also wonder if it's policy to shoot when the door is opened for them and there's a child present

Melissa"
" I have a very consistent world view concerning this"

I hear that from teenagers that have virtually no life experience say that all the time.


Melissa:
"a lesson was learned, policies were changed and we move on 15+ years later."

So....no problem with a wife and infant son getting murdered and no one paying for the crime as long as "policies were changed"?

Melissa:
"but I don't blame the LEO, I blame the policy"

Yeah, the Nazi guards used kinda the same excuse after WWII, "I was only following orders".
It was a BS excuse then, and it's a BS excuse now.


Melissa:
"as far as I'm concerned he brought this on himself and his family."

Again, it's about balance - Raid his house in the middle of the night dressed as ninjas, kill his pets in front of his kids - for a couple of joints? Where does it end? How was *PUBLIC SAFETY* served here?

Melissa:
"I dare say that's not terribly unusual with my experience with illegal drug users."

Please....spend several years on the streets doing law enforcement before you use the term "experience", it's laughable to have you that term in this context.

 Quote: Melissa Thom

as far as I'm concerned he brought this on himself and his family. It's just sad that his dog and his kid had to pay for his drug habit but I dare say that's not terribly unusual with my experience with illegal drug users.

This is a very disturbing idea. I do not like where it leads: he did not make the payment on time again, let's start torturing and killing his wife, kids and pets, it'll teach him a lesson. That's how criminals operate.

 Quote: al curbow

LEO's have the power to do many things a citizen can't do and NEED to be held to a higher standard Connie. There may have been rights here that were trampled on.

Absolutely. I was responding to the "most of them" comment.

Working in the UK I find it a bit hard to comment on the tactics used by the PD here. I've kicked in the door of one or two crack-dens myself over my last 19 years as an LEO, and certainly have my opinion of the raid.
Obviously we will never be partial to the exact 'intelligence' that the LEOs had and the information given to get the warrant issued.

Leaving aside the emotive 'how bad is cannabis' issue, the first thing that strikes me is 'proportionality'.
Is a full-on SWAT entry proportionate and necessary in these circumstances? (I'll bow to the US LEOs knowledge here).

IF it is, surely any good intel and recon of the premises would identify the likely presence of a dog (and child).
If so - where was the 'less-lethal' option? It did seem that there was none. Why not? There are plenty available.

From the information we have, I find it hard to find a justification as to why the dogs were shot. The officer who fired the rounds needs to do that - and if he cannot he should be dealt with properly, and not have it covered up.

As an LEO or any other position of authority, we need to be seen to have higher standards than Joe Public - in whatever we do.
We need to be transparent and honest, in order that the public can trust us.

When we make mistakes (we are human, honest), we should apologise.
When the occasional one 'crosses the line', they should be dealt with robustly and openly - and that is where we fail.

As the wife of a retired LEO who was lead officer on more SWAT call-outs than I care to remember, I find this video reprehensible. No need to go into all the "whys", they've already been covered.

I appreciate Melissa's willingness to realize there are two sides and that we ask these men and women to make split-second decisions under extreme circumstances, etc... My initial, knee-jerk response is ALWAYS in defence of those sworn to protect, and it sickens me when I realize that in some cases, that reaction is not warranted.

It bothers me almost as much as comments like this...

 Quote: scott garrett

Theory. A lot of combat arms personnel become LE after they get out of the service, correct? I've read several stories, from vets, about our guys killing dogs for sport over yonder. Might these be related, along with the overt force incidents that are making increasing amounts of news?

I've read "several stories" about our servicemen and women who come home maimed beyond description, whose lives have been torn apart beyond our comprehension, and yet who somehow manage to continue to conduct themselves as honorable, rational, functional and professional individuals.

To even hint that the situation shown in the video may have been caused by our returning veterans sickens me. I don't feel the need to say so via a PM.

 Quote: Melissa Thom

This wasn't this guy's first go around with police, he was on probation, as far as I'm concerned he brought this on himself and his family. It's just sad that his dog and his kid had to pay for his drug habit but I dare say that's not terribly unusual with my experience with illegal drug users.

This really bothers me. I don't mean to spill my life story but the reason I've also been wary of LEOs is because my family has for a long time been on the wrong side of the law. I never grew up with them helping me, only taking the people I loved away. And when my grandfather was murdered in his kitchen and they did nothing to help us I decided I would never trust them again.

A lot my family has violated parole a number of times, for drugs and other reasons. The police simply just came by to the house and picked them up to go back to jail. No problems, calmy explaining to the rest of the family what was going on. THAT is how it should be done. If you ask me, not I nor anyone else in my family (or our pets) should be shot and killed or injured because of something like this. I don't care what kind of dirt bag crack addict you are, your family and your pets have not made that decision and they do not deserve to suffer or die.

 Quote: connie sutherland

 Quote: keleah stull

I already had distrust for LEO's, no offense to those who are, just because of past experiences I don't care for most of them.

But please remember that you don't know "most of them."

I know that it's hard not to succumb to prejudice based on personal experiences, but maybe that's another lesson here: Those are individuals in that video -- not the LE profession or community as a whole.

I don't mean to offend you any more than you mean to offend the many members of this board who are part of that community, and I do understand the ease with which we allow an incident (or several incidents) to paint an entire group in our minds. I imagine we all struggle with that to some extent, about something.

I know that I don't know "most of them" and to me that's alright. I know that there are good cops and bad cops, and in my opinion, based on that video, those cops are bad.

I wasn't trying to offend anyone, and if I did, I am sincerely sorry. I understand that LEO's are there to serve and protect us, but what are people supposed to think when a line is crossed and an innocent victim, whether animal or person, is shot or even killed by the people meant to protect and serve us? It does damamge to the thought of "good cops" and the question of how bad things are getting or already have gotten in this country.

I respect LEO's, I understand that their job isn't always safe and yes sometimes going into a place where there's supposed to be drugs with guns blazing seems like the best idea-I know I wouldn't want to be shot, but to shoot and kill an animal that hasn't even bit/attacked anyone?

I also want to add that I highly respect LEOs and what they do. I know there are good and bad too. The good cannot be thanked enough for their services.

Will, I didn't say there was no need for outrage here. But we're not talking about Ruby Ridge, we're talking about a specific house raid. I'm honestly outraged that dogs were shot. I'm also outraged that a father chose to bring illegal drugs into his home. We all know that illegality attracts the best people, right? I'm outraged too that the public knee-jerk reaction is anti-cop.

Obviously, these cops knew the raid was being filmed. It only logically follows that they believed they were acting according to policy. I'm just saying it might be more effective to target the policy rather than the deliverymen.