Quote: Brianah Maloney

What would you have done if you picked wrong? I mean, and the dog turned out to be the "hardest" high drive GSD you have ever met?
Would you keep the pup/dog?

I would have been downright shocked. I went with an experienced breeder who knows her lines very well. I was there when many of the puppies were born and saw them at least weekly. Their personalities started to emerge around 2 weeks and become consistently stronger.

 Quote: Brianah Maloney

Your not into Schutzhund?
I really thought you were.. i must have you confused with another member on here. Your picture has been the same for how long?

We do agility, obedience and tracking. I'm guessing my pic has been the same for a few months.

I have a sweet lovable extremely social malinois that lives as a house dog. He enjoys visitors, will snuggle on the couch with you to watch a movie, is a joy to work with. Loves kids, other dogs ect.


We train for about 1-2 hours a day total with every third or forth day off. That's our OB session throughout the day. In addition he's run daily with every other day being something high impact (as it's winter we're dogsledding on a 2-3 dog team for 2-4 miles at spring speeds). The end result is this lovely balanced dog who curls up under my desk at night and sleeps while I work.

How many average people spend that amount of time with their dogs? Luckily, most of them don't need to because they don't have malinois. If you did that with your average cocker spaniel they'd be dead tired after the first session. Cocker spaniels aren't expected to be like mals and are not bred for the work many malinois can do.


Gamble (previously Gambit) was owned by a person on this forum who was not prepared for a malinois. Everyone warned him before he got this puppy, he didn't listen. Gamble is very much a high drive malinois...but he is NOT a "hard to handle" malinois by ANY stretch. His drive is not paired with many of the things that can make the breed harder to handle. He's not handler aggressive, not pushy, he's genetically a social butterfly, he has no sense of stubborness, he doesn't try to test you, he is, for all intensive purposes....what I would think of as the PERFECT "starter malinois" for the dog experienced person who was ready to take on the challenge of a harder breed. He'll let you make minor mistakes in learning a harder breed without going downhill quickly. However for someone with less dog experience he's still a mal, and will still be a terror if you don't completely commit to training him.

His previous owner had nothing but trouble with him and essentially did everything "wrong" you can do raising a working dog. He didn't get enough exercise, he wasn't given the proper outlet to do what he was bred to and when he was there was to much pressure for a young malleable mal puppy. This is a breed you need to bring up with great care, socialization, confidence building, etc.

Gamble was the pretty much the perfect match for what his previous owner SAID he wanted from the breeder. He wanted a high drive malinois puppy that wasn't to extreme as to make him difficult to train or control as a personal protection dog who could live as a housedog with two young children in the house. This wasn't a case of a breeder matching up a super hard aggressive or stubborn dog to the wrong owner. Gamble was a higher drive working ready malinios, great natural grip, the only extreme he has is being over the top genetically social with this wonderful outlook on the world that makes him see everything as a friend unless told otherwise. He is EXACTLY the type of dog that those (often scam) "executive protection dog" trainers want. He's the type of dog who looks like a beast in protection, has enough nerve to put up enough of a real fight to be effective to the person who really doesn't have any enemies but thinks they do (aka: he'd take the first bullet or hit for you...and continue to bark but probably wouldn't fight through excessive trauma or aggression). He's strong enough to be stable enough to be tormented by children or hectic household without retaliation or loosing his cool. I've had a lot of those sorts of organizations try to buy him for that reason. He's a dog that with the right training and outlet is soooo easy to live with and is not a "hard to handle" malinois. However the owner did not accurately assess himself as a trainer and handler raising this dog on his own as many MANY people fail to do when looking for a dog.

The dog I picked up at 11 months old was a classic example of the result of inexperienced handling. He was extremely defensive, under socialized, no concept of functioning in the house (climbed walls and OMFG the pacing....for hours...also crate chirping for hours on end), lacked confidence in almost everything he did. Luckly he was still young and had a that nice solid temperment under the mishandling so he was fixable, but had he ended up in a shelter he would have been euthed on the spot because he's not adoptable to the one-walk-a-day pet home.

Wonderful post, Jamie.

"LIKE" We need a like button.

 Quote: Duane Hull

Bri;

The reasons that people are skeptical of newcomers selecting their breed-of-choice are these...

1. Shelters are full of dogs that are surrendered by people who thought it would be neato to own a certain type of dog. It pisses me off. The dog ends up paying for the stupidity of humans with its freedom, or possibly its life. Go to enough shelters and you will see the ACD that someone got because it has cool markings, only to discover that it won't stop chasing every child or small animal that it sees. You'll see the Catahoula that someone thought was adorable with its two different eyes, but was not prepared for the fact that it couldn't be contained in a yard with a chain link fence like all of the other dogs they've owned.

Go to one of the Malinois rescue sites and read the backstories of some of the rescues. Maybe then you will see how misguided people caused a dog to end up in an unfortunate circumstance. It's easy to say "Well, they shouldn't have gotten said breed", BUT PEOPLE WARN THEM ABOUT IT AHEAD OF TIME AND THEY STILL JUST HAVE TO HAVE ONE (sound familiar?).

True story. A trainer and breeder of selectively bred high-drive GSDs reluctantly sells a good pup to a first-time owner. He does so against his own better judgment because she commits to going to his house once a week for the foreseeable future to learn how to manage and handle the pup. She does so religiously for four months, and everything is great. Then, one day the dog runs through a puddle and she tries to dry him off with a towel, not taking into account that the towel is an invitation for a GSD pup to play tug. They end up tusseling over the towel and she gets nipped. Good thing for the pup that the forgiving breeder was willing to rehome the dog (sans refund, of course!), or it would have ended up in a shelter with the label "Aggressive".

2. The whole point of getting involved with a specific breed is to preserve the traits of that breed going into the future. BC owners see themselves as guardians for the preservation of the breed, and most take that responsibility seriously.

3. The more you post about this, the clearer it becomes that this group of BC owners ostracized you because you are all too willing to discount the need for a careful selection process and you downplay the problems that prospective BC owners might face. They love BCs and are tired of seeing them end up in shelters by the hands of humans who thought that BC owners overstate the issues that a BC can have.

Maybe you are capable of managing a high-drive dog, but you saying it may not be all the reassurance that a dedicated group of experienced BC owners wants. Maybe they know from experience that it's not a cakewalk and they don't appreciate someone coming along with the attitude that it's no big deal.

All good points, Duane! Case in point, my situation.

I was gifted a labrador retriever. By genetics and hereditary most labs are known to be great family dogs and for the most part a decent first time dog owner if you take time to do some basic training. Well due to genetics and most likely environmental issues, this lab is disguised as a mal in lab clothing. I have spent 10's of $1,000's of dollars training to meet my dogs needs. This is not something a normal person would do for a dog they never wanted or a breed they chose for their disposition. Most trainers told me to put him down due to his aggression, and most people would have especially when he bit a child. However, I am a dog person so that wasn't an option.

Now I look at friends who have mals and I say I could never handle a dog like THAT - and they turn to me and say, are you kidding??!!? - that's exactly what you have! So perception is everything. And yes, I do believe my 'labrador' is more dog than a lot of BC's, Mals, and other hard breeds out there. Would I suggest any of the above to first time owners? No way. Dog ownership is suppose to be fun.

But no- an aggressive Labrador is not a malinois in disguise! Please read up on the breed standard especially for the serious working dog. Top working malinois are often quite social, happy, and confident and love their work. Jamie's malinois is extra social, but malinois are not supposed to be aggressive to neutral strangers. Wary is OK, neutral is great, social is fine. I had my malinois at the vet for her OFA's today. Vet remarked on how confident and easy to handle she was- she wasn't thrilled but she showed no aggression. This same dog can turn ON when working.

The unique quality of a malinois is their ability to turn on/off from drive. Their drives are highly instinctual, but their ability to regulate when to use them is exceptional.

A nervy malinois, one that has no confidence, a fear biter, a dog that is environmentally unstable- all those are serious faults. Could be the result of poor socialization when young, but is more likely a genetic issue.

Of course malinois are not for everyone... but it bothers me if an aggressive, nervy dog of another breed is called a "malinois". I just don't agree.

" ... it bothers me if an aggressive, nervy dog of another breed is called a "malinois". I just don't agree."


Of course not. "Aggressive" and "nervy" do not mean "high drive" (and neither is the inverse true).

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

High-drive and "issues" are completely different.

 Quote: Brianah Maloney

seem to go hand in hand

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

No. They are completely separate things.

"Issues" means something has gone awry, whether in breeding or socializing or whatever.

(page 2 of this thread)

My thoughts on high drive and nervy.
High drive is a high level of activity/energy.
Nervy would be environmentally unsound. The dog startles easily with new situations. The dog's response to the situation can determine if and how the dog can be trained.

Ive seen many, many "high drive" dogs that are still very clear headed and can "think" through the situation and rarely startles. IF it startles it can recover quickly.
They can be good, solid dogs.

The nervy dog can't "think" through the situation and it can go as far as total panic or even shutting down. Same with recovery. Some can't with out a tremendous amount of desensitizing. Even then it" not a dog I could trust with every new situation.

 Quote: Kiersten Lippman

But no- an aggressive Labrador is not a malinois in disguise! Please read up on the breed standard especially for the serious working dog. Top working malinois are often quite social, happy, and confident and love their work. Jamie's malinois is extra social, but malinois are not supposed to be aggressive to neutral strangers. Wary is OK, neutral is great, social is fine. I had my malinois at the vet for her OFA's today. Vet remarked on how confident and easy to handle she was- she wasn't thrilled but she showed no aggression. This same dog can turn ON when working.

The unique quality of a malinois is their ability to turn on/off from drive. Their drives are highly instinctual, but their ability to regulate when to use them is exceptional.

A nervy malinois, one that has no confidence, a fear biter, a dog that is environmentally unstable- all those are serious faults. Could be the result of poor socialization when young, but is more likely a genetic issue.

Of course malinois are not for everyone... but it bothers me if an aggressive, nervy dog of another breed is called a "malinois". I just don't agree.

I don't know, maybe Michael Ellis was wrong when he described my lab. Could be.

Most mals I know aren't social animals and/or aren't 'happy' unless they are working. Most ones I know are happiest when they are biting. It seems like most have some sort of issue that needs to be worked through, be it environmental, social, being spooked...

I think what Michael meant when he described my dog was that, he was environmentally aware, twitched and reacted to every movement, likes to bite and can be turned on like a light switch. He also is pretty environmentally sound and can work anywhere, he turns off as quickly as he turns on, he's bomb proof and can do most any sport you ask him to (and do it quite well). Not wanting people and dog friends is his only real issue. Albeit a big issue, but to get everything I described above I guess is worth the effort.

So I guess if you read the breed 'standard' for malinois, you hope to get what you describe. However, I don't think that's most of the gene pool. At least not what I see on a regular basis.

"A nervy malinois, one that has no confidence, a fear biter, a dog that is environmentally unstable- all those are serious faults. Could be the result of poor socialization when young, but is more likely a genetic"

This is true for every breed of dog.

Edited by Jodi Moen (02/05/2014 08:07 AM)
Edit reason: correction