Rick, what have you added to the thread besides divisive comments? When I get back home to my books I'll post a few studies. I never mentioned that there were a million studies to back up my argument, I just mentioned there aren't a million to back up that dogs want to be a leader and will step up if given a chance. The unfortunate truth is there is not enough money to study wild dogs and no where near enough to study pet dogs. I have yet to see any science on dominance in pet dogs one way or another.

You would think after almost 24 hours of discussing someone would have posted or pm'ed me real scientific back up for pack/dominance theory. None of my opinions or beliefs are hard fast. I want to know the truth more than be right but all most of the posters here have done is repeat the same things and try to tear me down instead of elevate there POV.

The thing I have learned about scientific studies is that if there is a way to prove something, there will be as many ways to prove the opposite point through cleverly worded text, or manipulated or omitted 'facts'.

I don't need a study to tell me anything about dog behavior, I live with a "pack" and judging from the number of emails Ed and I get every single day from people whose dogs have taken the leadership role, pack behavior is alive and well in our canine friends.

I doubt there is a big financial payoff to any corporation or institution from publishing studies on pack behavior or you can bet your a$$ there would be studies assaulting us from every angle on this topic.

Just my "anectodotal" opinion.

I don't know what to say about that Cindy. It disappoints me that you think you can extrapolate the temperaments, behaviors, and instincts of the common dog as a whole by watching your dogs and reading emails. I bet I can find a person that has a perfectly well behaved dog that has never attempted some of the leadership program for every email about someone who's dog turned around per Ed's information

Also why would everyone be out to get you? I don't get that at all. I mean if you could prove dominance and pack as an instinct then you would shut up trainers like Jean Donaldson and Ian Dunbar and use those results to push OB classes, equipment, videos on being boss...it seems the industry has a lot more to gain by the idea of a dog being a follower instead of a partner.

 Quote: benjamin colbert

I bet I can find a person that has a perfectly well behaved dog that has never attempted some of the leadership program for every email about someone who's dog turned around per Ed's information.

Ben, some people are natural leaders who fill the pack leader role as a matter of personality, and some dogs are submissive enough that they don't need much of a leader. That doesn't disprove the validity of pack drive or pack rules.

And the industry may have much to gain, but which member of that industry is going to reap the profits? And what Cindy said was that even if there WAS a study to prove the theory, another would come along to disprove it.

It is VERY VERY difficult to find an unbiased study because studies cost money. The only reason to invest that money would be because of a reward. Unfortunately, that reward by definition makes the study biased.

I would personally take the collective, massive amount of information given by people who have nothing to gain and have seen RESULTS over a biased "scientific" study.

And for the record, Ed and Cindy aren't the only ones who believe in and promote pack structure as a way to live with your dogs. But even if they were, do you think people would actually do it if it didn't work? It works.

 Quote: Benjamin Colbert

Also why would everyone be out to get you? I don't get that at all.

What the heck???? I find that comment really strange and almost creepy.


Thanks Amber, you just saved me a lot of typing.

If Benji needs studies, then why in the world would we waste any more of our time on this? Some people truly want to learn, others just want to argue every point over and over... I have a teenager to fill that position should I feel the need to beat my head against a wall any more today.

 Quote: Benjamin Colbert

Rick, what have you added to the thread besides divisive comments?

Now if I was your alpha wolf, Ben, you know I wouldn't tolerate that type of backtalk! Relax, you are being as divisive as anyone here.

Check out this book: Wolves of the World: Perspectives of Behavior, Ecology, and Conservation, 1972

The author talks about how wolves have a social order, and how this order is enforced in a subtle manner, not through overt agressivness. In fact, the author states that the alpha animal doesn't have to be bigger or stronger, it just needs to be percieved as such.

Amber, my point is that anecdotal evidence doesn't work. For your loads of people that swear by pack theory I could bring loads that believe similarly to me and do fine. Thats why studies work. And I'm not looking for studies funded by Purina, I'm looking for published, peer reviewed studies, usually funded by a university. Grad students rarely have a strong ulterior motive except graduation.

I don't mean to be picky and I'll certainly read that book (I try and read everything I can get my hands on about wolves and dogs) but I'd prefer something newer than 35 years old, but again I'm not trying to discount this.

Ben, could you be please reiterate what exactly it is that you believe?

That there is NO pack drive in dogs?

That it is all conditioning with no genetic componant?

Explain exactly what this study of yours would consist of in order to satisy whatever requirements you need?

My guess is that a study like this will always be open to subjective interpretation by people who want to continue what they believe. "The dog was handled incorrectly" "It's the individual nature of that specific dog and doesn't translate to dogs in general" "The setting of the study was inappropriate" "The study had too few dogs." "The study didn't use every breed on the planet" and so on and so on.

I agree that one case study is not evidence. But thousands and thousands of them have greater weight.

 Quote: Benjamin Colbert

For your loads of people that swear by pack theory I could bring loads that believe similarly to me and do fine.

Again, I would tell you that these people are already (even unknowingly) filling the leadership role, OR they have dogs that do not have challenging or dominant temperments and do not need that strong of a leader.

 Quote: Benjamin Colbert

And I'm not looking for studies funded by Purina, I'm looking for published, peer reviewed studies, usually funded by a university. Grad students rarely have a strong ulterior motive except graduation.

To make a study like you're talking about scientifically viable and immune to any strong debate would take many dogs (with all the associated costs of keeping these dogs) and many people for a long period of time. Without these components, the study would be weak. No university is going to pay that much money, and no grad student is going to wait that long to graduate.

Just my opinion.

 Quote: cindy easton rhodes

If Benji needs studies, then why in the world would we waste any more of our time on this? Some people truly want to learn, others just want to argue every point over and over... I have a teenager to fill that position should I feel the need to beat my head against a wall any more today.

I missed this post when I last posted. True AND funny. Okay, I surrender to Ben's "arguement drive."