Quote: barbara schuler

I've read "several stories" about our servicemen and women who come home maimed beyond description, whose lives have been torn apart beyond our comprehension, and yet who somehow manage to continue to conduct themselves as honorable, rational, functional and professional individuals.

To even hint that the situation shown in the video may have been caused by our returning veterans sickens me. I don't feel the need to say so via a PM.

My father served in the USAF for 26 years including 2.5 years in 'Nam, as recon and a sniper, and my mother was a USAF nurse for 12 years. I quite clearly have respect for service people, thank you very much. However, I don't wear rose colored glasses. The initial incident in this article ( http://www.kcra.com/news/20008160/detail.html ) happened ten minutes from my house.

You completely missed my point. I didn't hint that all returning vets were like this. I theorized that there may be some vets that got used to killing dogs and hyperviolent house raids, then became LEOs and still operate under a martial law frame of mind. I've been doing a lot of research on the military lately and that includes talking to vets and watching as much footage on YouTube as I can find, including the unflattering. For instance, I watched the uncensored video for this story http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4014901.stm (Here's a German version of the video, if anyone wants to watch it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KnH2t3Gjio ) This guy got caught because there was a news crew there. How many others didn't and may have went on to become LE? I think it's an honest and valid question as the links to mental illness are well documented and videos like this ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZI3B6QjKn-Y ) of a soldier throwing a puppy off a cliff document the animal abuse. I ask the question to try to find a reason for the increasing stories of LEO excessive force from across the country, knowing that many combat arms vets become LE. I do not ask the question as an insult or as part of any agenda.

Again, I am in no way, shape or form saying or implying that this is representative of anything other than a small minority of service people.

 Quote: Katie Finlay

 Quote: Melissa Thom

This wasn't this guy's first go around with police, he was on probation, as far as I'm concerned he brought this on himself and his family. It's just sad that his dog and his kid had to pay for his drug habit but I dare say that's not terribly unusual with my experience with illegal drug users.

This really bothers me. I don't mean to spill my life story but the reason I've also been wary of LEOs is because my family has for a long time been on the wrong side of the law. I never grew up with them helping me, only taking the people I loved away. And when my grandfather was murdered in his kitchen and they did nothing to help us I decided I would never trust them again.

A lot my family has violated parole a number of times, for drugs and other reasons. The police simply just came by to the house and picked them up to go back to jail. No problems, calmy explaining to the rest of the family what was going on. THAT is how it should be done. If you ask me, not I nor anyone else in my family (or our pets) should be shot and killed or injured because of something like this. I don't care what kind of dirt bag crack addict you are, your family and your pets have not made that decision and they do not deserve to suffer or die.

I had just short of a dozen officers show up at my house a little over a year ago, looking for a past tenant. The officer I talked to asked me to contain my dog (Rasta) who was standing between my legs and quite unhappy. I had him down behind me and the officer was fine with that. No shots were fired and neither of my dogs were killed, even though every window and door of the house was covered. They called my landlord to verify my tenancy and were on their way to actually do some real intel. The sad part is, it was the third time they'd been here looking for the same person. They haven't been back since, though.

Most of my wife's family is or has been on the wrong side of the law. Mostly for meth related crimes but, her cousin is Nuestra Familia and doing time in Pelican Bay for stabbing a guard.

 Quote: Scott Garrett

You completely missed my point. I didn't hint that all returning vets were like this. I theorized that there may be some vets that got used to killing dogs and hyperviolent house raids, then became LEOs and still operate under a martial law frame of mind.

No, I didn't miss the point, I understood it perfectly. I simply found it insulting to our military. JMHO.

 Quote: Barbara Schuler

 Quote: Scott Garrett

You completely missed my point. I didn't hint that all returning vets were like this. I theorized that there may be some vets that got used to killing dogs and hyperviolent house raids, then became LEOs and still operate under a martial law frame of mind.

No, I didn't miss the point, I understood it perfectly. I simply found it insulting to our military. JMHO.

A sign of an intelligent mind is the ability to entertain a thought without having to accept it.

Might these cases of gross over-reaction by LEO, not to mention the many cases seen with non-LEO persons, be related to the training they get by playing violent recreational video games?

If a person practices shooting dogs and people in a video game it IS going to manifest into an automatic response in the real world with the right stimulus.

If the military uses video games to train soldiers for combat (and they have for years), why would we (civilians) not think that video games would carry over into real life?

What we do in private DOES have consequences for other people.

Edit to add:
I do think that the actions of the Columbia, MO SWAT team was over the top and unjustified.

The reference to the Nazi soldiers committing heinous crimes and using the "It was my orders" excuse needs to be remembered by everyone.

Hi Debbie,

There is a thread just recently on this topic, see "Dogs as Weapons"!

Saw the video and it was truly horrific. Mahatma Gandhi use to paraphrase william blackstones "It is better that ten guilty escape than one innocent suffer." . This might sound like nancy boy talk, but is very practical and has real life efficacy.

I do understand the arguement that the policemen might have shot the dog(s) in the spur of the moment, but they are not doing a typists job. Their spur of the moment actions may mean life or death to the very people who pay their salaries. I hope the parties responsible pay dearly.

It was gut wrenching to hear the policemen fire into an yelping dog. Sad!!!

 Quote: debbie bruce

Might these cases of gross over-reaction by LEO, not to mention the many cases seen with non-LEO persons, be related to the training they get by playing violent recreational video games?

If a person practices shooting dogs and people in a video game it IS going to manifest into an automatic response in the real world with the right stimulus.

If the military uses video games to train soldiers for combat (and they have for years), why would we (civilians) not think that video games would carry over into real life?

What we do in private DOES have consequences for other people.

Edit to add:
I do think that the actions of the Columbia, MO SWAT team was over the top and unjustified.

The reference to the Nazi soldiers committing heinous crimes and using the "It was my orders" excuse needs to be remembered by everyone.

I would think that goes back to rule number one. Know your target before you pull the trigger.

 Quote: scott garrett

I would think that goes back to rule number one. Know your target before you pull the trigger.

Exactly.

There are people out there with faster reflexes and the ability to access a deadly situation quickly. Some people are better at deciding "Threat" or "Not a threat". They should be behind the sights.

If you can't do that get a different job.

We don't use dogs for a job they can't perform, we shouldn't do any different with people.

Bingo.

So, in working dog terms, did that swat team have "weak nerves?"

They were "reactive" - working in "defense?"

I agree with lots of folks on this thread. Poor actions by individuals under stress.

 Quote: michael_wise

 Quote: scott garrett

I would think that goes back to rule number one. Know your target before you pull the trigger.

Exactly.

There are people out there with faster reflexes and the ability to access a deadly situation quickly. Some people are better at deciding "Threat" or "Not a threat". They should be behind the sights.

If you can't do that get a different job.

We don't use dogs for a job they can't perform, we shouldn't do any different with people.

Then the training provided by simulators helps hone and fine tune those natural tools, just like pilots.